len lawa loje

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
jan Pina
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len lawa loje

Postby jan Pina » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:59 pm

Hello guys

I'm going to translate "A Little Red Riding Hood" story. And actually already did it. But having some issues so need an advice.
First of all with the names. The name jan Lili Len Lawa Loje seems too clumsy to use it all along the story. Is it OK to shorten it to jan Loje?
Also names for a Big Bad Wolf and Little Good Cat. Is it OK to shorten them to soweli Lupo and soweli Katu?

With best regards jan Pina

janKipo
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:35 am

Sure, names are an open class that don't have to make any particular sense ( l think l called her 'Lelatinu'). Note that the basic descriptive name would have the 'Lili' at the right end.

jan Pina
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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: len lawa loje

Postby jan Pina » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:47 am

Ok Then nimi ona li LojeLili :)

Here is the story. All and any editorial or grammar corrections are very welcome.

Disclaimer: The story translated neither from Brüder Grimm nor from Charles Perrault version.
It is mostly a compilation of original folk tale from a Wikipedia page.

[url] https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1 ... 1.82.D0.B0
[/url]

o kute e toki pi jan Len Lawa Loje Lili.
tenpo suli pini la jan lili meli li lon. ona li jo e len loje. len lawa ona li loje.
(tan ni: jan ale li nimi e jan lili ni kepeken nimi jan Len Loje Lili.)
tan ni: nimi ona li jan LojeLili.
tenpo suno la mama ona li toki e ni: jan LojeLili o tawa e tomo mama mama (meli sina).
o pana e kala pona e pan sin e poki pi telo walo tawa mama mama sina.
jan LojeLili li tawa e tomo pi mama mama. ona li tawa e nasin pi ma pi kasi suli. ona li tawa li kalama musi pona.
tenpo ni la soweli ike mute li lon e nasin sama.
nimi ona li soweli Lupo. soweli li wile wawa moku .
soweli Lupo li toki tawa jan LojeLili: sina tawa seme?
jan LojeLili li lukin e soweli. ona li toki e ni: me tawa e tomo mama mama mi.
soweli li toki e ni: ni nasin ike en nasin ante pona. jan LojeLili o tawa e nasin ante.
jan LojeLili li tawa nasin ante. nasin ante li ike kin. ona li tawa tenpo mute.
soweli Lupo li tawa wawa e nasin pona. tenpo lili la soweli li cama e toma.
soweli li kama lon insa tomo. ona li moli e mama mama.
soweli li kama jo e telo loje tan mama mama. soweli li pali e telo nasa tan telo loje ona.
soweli li pali e moku tan mama mama. ( kepeken seli )
mama mama li kama e moku kin e moku ni insa poki. poki moku ni li lon supa moku.
soweli li len kepeken len pi mama mama.
tenpo ni jan LojeLili kama. ona li open e tomo lupa. ona li kama insa e tomo. ona li toki e ni: toki! mama mama o! mi kama.
mi jo e kala pona e pan sin e poki pi telo walo. mi pana e moku tawa sina.
soweli Lupo li kute e ona toki. soweli li toki e ni: sina pona tawa me. jan LojeLili o moku. moku li pona li lon e supa moku.
tenpo ni la soweli lili li kama. soweli lili li pona. nimi ona li soweli Katu.
ona li wile pakala e moku ni. ona li wile ni: jan LojeLili li moku ala mama mama.
taso la ona li pakala ala. ona li pona ala e ni kin. soweli Lupo li sona e soweli Katu pilin.
soweli Lupo li moli e ona. soweli Katu li moli. jan LojeLili li moku e (moku tan) mama mama.
soweli Lupo li toki tawa jan LojeLili. moku ni li pona ala pona tawa sina?
jan LojeLili li toki. moku li pona o mama mama.
me pilin wawa ala. me wile e lape.
soweli Lupo li toki e ni: o pana mi e len ona. o lape lon supa.
jan LojeLili li weka e len ona. ona li lape e supa.
soweli kama jo e len ona. soweli li weka len insa e seli poki. len li kama e seli. len li kama e ala.
soweli li cama tawa supa lape. soweli li lape e supa.
jan Loja li lukin e soweli. ona li toki e ni: mama mama o! sina oko suli tan seme?
soweli li toki: tan ni: me wile li lukin pona e sina.
mama mama o! sina kute suli tan seme?
tan ni: me wile li kute mute e toki sina.
mama mama o! sina luka suli tan seme?
tan ni: me wile li cama jo mute e sina.
mama mama o! sina uta suli tan seme?
tan ni: me wile li moku wawa e sina.
soweli ike suli li moku e jan LojeLili.
pini.

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jan Alanto
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby jan Alanto » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:23 pm

Oh! You choose the most malicious version of the story. :twisted: Not suitable for today's fragile kids. Your toki pona style is comparably good. You seem to avoid common place literal calquey translations and I can understand almost everything you wrote. It's a very clear and unambiguous writing. Congratulations! Perhaps Kipo would like to address some more things, but I think what I pointed out is enough.

Things to be taken out in red (because it's superfluous or wrong or I just would suggest taking out but not really bad). Things to be added in green. Optional things in blue. Comments inside brackets. Small orthographical corrections in bold. Sentences I demand clarification underlined.

tenpo suli pini la jan lili meli lili li lon. [meli already means girl. jan lili meli is just superfluous] ona li jo e len loje. len lawa ona li loje.
(tan ni: jan ale li nimi e jan lili ni kepeken nimi jan Len Loje Lili.)
tan ni:la nimi ona li jan LojeLili. [Kipo probably would suggest "ona li jan Lojelili", but even Sonja uses this kind of phrasing]
tenpo suno la mama ona li toki e ni: jan LojeLili o tawa e tomo pi mama mama (meli sina).
o pana e kala pona e pan sin e poki pi telo walo tawa mama mama sina.
jan LojeLili li tawa e tomo pi mama mama. [tawa doesn't take e, unless in one special case where it means "move something"] ona li tawa e lon [or kepeken] nasin pi ma pi kasi suli. [Nested "pi"s are to be avoided when unnecessary. Not wrong, just clumsy. "nasin pi ma kasi" should be enough for "forest" (it's an idiom)] ona li tawa li kalama musi pona.
tenpo ni la soweli pi ike mute [Not "many bad animals", but "very bad animal"] li lon e nasin sama. [lon also doesn't take "e" unless it means "create, make exist"]
nimi ona li soweli Lupo. soweli Lupo li wile wawa moku . [or "ona li wile wawa moku."]
soweli Lupo li toki tawa jan LojeLili: sina tawa seme?
jan LojeLili li lukin e soweli. ona li toki e ni: mi tawa e tomo pi mama mama mi.
soweli li toki e ni: ni li nasin ike en. [or "nasin ni li ike."] nasin ante li pona. jan LojeLili o tawa elon nasin ante.
jan LojeLili li tawa lon nasin ante. nasin ante li ike kin. ona li tawa lon tenpo mute. [better "tenpo suli"]
soweli Lupo li tawa wawa elon nasin pona. tenpo lili la soweli li kama etawa tomo.
soweli li kama lon insa tomo. ona li moli e mama mama.
soweli li kama jo e telo loje tan mama mama. soweli li pali e telo nasa tan telo loje ona.
soweli li pali e moku tan mama mama kepeken seli. [I think that's a good addition to the text]
mama mama li kama e moku kin e moku ni insa poki. [I think I didn't get this. Perhaps grandma also became food and Lupo put her in a sack? "mama mama li kama moku kin. soweli Lupo li tawa insa poki e ona."] poki moku ni li lon supa moku.
soweli li len kepeken len pi mama mama.
tenpo ni jan LojeLili likama. ona li open e tomo lupalupa tomo. ona li kama insa elon insa [or "kama tawa insa", or just "tawa insa"] tomo. ona li toki e ni: toki! mama mama o! mi kama.
mi jo e kala pona e pan sin e poki pi telo walo. mi pana e moku tawa sina.
soweli Lupo li kute e ona tokitoki ona ["hear her speech" instead of "hear a talking she", because it's more common and surely right]. soweli li toki e ni: sina pona tawa mi. jan LojeLili o moku. moku li pona li lon e supa moku.
tenpo ni la soweli lili li kama. soweli lili li pona. nimi ona li soweli Katu.
ona li wile pakala e moku ni. ona li wile ni: jan LojeLili li moku ala e mama mama.
taso la ona li pakala ala. ona li pona ala e ni kin. soweli Lupo li sona e soweli Katu pilinpilin pi soweli Katu.
soweli Lupo li moli e ona. soweli Katu li moli. jan LojeLili li moku e (moku tan) mama mama.
soweli Lupo li toki e nitawa jan LojeLili: moku ni li pona ala pona tawa sina?
jan LojeLili li toki e ni: moku li pona o mama mama.mama mama o, moku li pona.
mi pilin wawa ala. mi wile e lape. ["mi wile lape" is also possible here]
soweli Lupo li toki e ni: o pana mi e len onae len sina tawa mi. o lape lon supa.
jan LojeLili li weka e len ona. ona li lape elon supa.
soweli li kama jo e len ona. soweli li weka len insa e seli poki. [Lupo got rid of the clothes inside the oven: "soweli li weka e len kepeken poki seli" or "soweli li weka e len lon insa pi poki seli." Lupo put the clothes inside the oven: "soweli li lon insa pi poki seli e len"] len li kama e seli. len li kama e ala. [or "kama weka"]
soweli li kama tawa supa lape. soweli li lape elon supa.
jan Loje li lukin e soweli. ona li toki e ni: mama mama o! sina oko sulioko sina li suli [or sina jo e oko suli] tan seme?
soweli li toki e ni: tan ni: mi wile li lukin pona e sina.
mama mama o! sina kute sulikute sina li suli [or sina jo e kute suli]tan seme?
tan ni: mi wile li kute mute e toki sina.
mama mama o! sina luka suliluka sina li suli [or sina jo e luka suli] tan seme?
tan ni: mi wile li cama jopoki [this can read as "hug", but may also refer to what Lupo will actually do to her] [orpilin = touch, luka = any action with the hands or arms (touching, hugging, holding, caress...)] mute e sina.
mama mama o! sina uta suliuta sina li suli [or sina jo e uta suli]tan seme?
tan ni: mi wile li moku wawa e sina.
soweli ike suli li moku e jan LojeLili. :twisted:
pini.

jan Pina
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby jan Pina » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:49 am

pona mute.
sina pona mute e lipu ni.
toki sin li pona tawa me.
mi wile sitelen e toki ante.
tenpo kama la toki ante li pona tawa jan lili. :)

janKipo
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby janKipo » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:16 pm

'tenpo suli pini' "a long time ago" is sometimes disputed in favor of 'tenpo pini suli'. This is clear, though.
'jan lili meli' is often "daughter" as opposed to 'jan meli lili' for "little girl". While modifier order seems to be important, there are some cases where either the usual rules don't apply or the rules just aren't clear.
'tan ni' means "because of this" but a lot hands on what "this" is. In general, 'x tan ni: y' means "x because y", "y is the cause of x" and 'tan ni:" is part of the first sentence. but in 'x. tan ni la y' x is the cause of y, "x, therefore y" and the 'tan ni' is part of the second sentence. Your usage is halfway between, you use the colon form but attach it to the second sentence, without 'la'. You clearly mean the second sense (she got her name from wearing her clothes), so replace 'tan ni:' with 'tan ni la'.
There is a terrible muddle in the text books about giving people names. Yours is better than most but wrong in two respects. 1 (which most people would agree with) 'jan' is not part of the name but merely the noun that the name has to lean on, so should not be included in the name. Then come a good part: since you are giving a name, which is a word, it needs a noun to hang on and that noun should be 'nimi', as you have it. The remaining problem (2) is that to talk about a word. you have to use a name for it (just as you do for anything else) and that name should be different from what it names (again, as usual), so you need to use a name of Red's name, typically the one fomed by enclosing it in quotes. So, the really correct formulation is 'nimi e jan lili ni kepeken nimi 'Len Loje Lili''.
'tan ni la' again. 'nimi ona li (nimi) 'LojeLili'' (the books seem to allow the 'nimi' to be dropped in the predicate position.)
no 'e' with 'tawa' for the destination (it's a preposition) 'tomo pi mama...' 'meli sina' is clarifying, but it seems that ;mama' is usually understood it specific cases as female, unless marked (force of habit).
no 'e' with 'tawa' again. 'tawa lon nasin' ('tawa e x' means "move x", not either "move to x" nor "move along x")
'lon' is again a preposition, so no 'e' with its object, the place the subject is at, so 'lon nasin sama.'
Names again. 'nimi ona li (nimi) 'Lupo'' or, more safely 'ona li soweli Lupo' (usually the bst choice, since everyone knows what it means and agrees it is correct). ('soweli' is no more part of his name than 'jan' is of yours).
For grammar, you need to incorporate the utterance into the sentence, so 'toki e ni tawa jan LojeLili: sina...'
'mi' tawa tomo pi mama'
no 'en' between sentences (and these two have to be separated because they have different subjects. 'nasin ni li ike. (taso) nasin ante li pona.' 'e' again.
"goes to the other path" (prob 'lon nasin ante') 'nasin ante kin li ike' 'tawa lon tenpo suli' (mute tends to count, not measure)(times in preposition place take prepositions, usually 'lon').
'lon nasin' 'tenpo lili' is a problem generally, since it also means (officially) "a few times, occasionally," even "rarely". Here it is clear. 'kama' is not a transitive verb nor a preposition, so not object at all; rather it requires a preposition to say where you come to, usually 'lon', if you actually get there (since 'kama' really means "become").
If I understand the next bit, Gramma becomes a meat pie: 'kama moku (kin' -- you've laready said she was made into food, so I'm not sure what the 'kin' does here) I think the grammar forces a separate sentence he 'moku ni li lon insa poki' (need the 'lon' in any case)
'lupa tomo' 'kama lon insa tomo'
'kute e toki ona''? 'mi'
'ona li soweli Katu' (or 'nimi ona li (nimi) 'Katu'')
'moku ala e mama mama'
prob 'pilin pi soweli Katu' "what Cat is thinking"
'moku (pi tan mama mama)'
'toki e ni:' (we're working on shortcuts and variations, but none are clear yet) 'mama mama o, moku li pona' (vocative first, 'o' comes after invocation)
'mi' (disputable 'wawa ala pilin') 'mi wile lape' ('wile' is a modal so takes the verb directly after it)
'len sina' or 'len sama' (This, and most above, appear to be direct quotes, not indirect and so should have quotes around them).
'lape lon supa'
'soweli li kama jo' 'weka e len lon insa pi poki seli' 'len li kama seli. len li kama ala' (not a good expression, since so easily misread, maybe 'kama ijo ala')
'kama lon/tawa supa lape' 'lape lon supa'
'Loje; (I suppose, new name) 'oko sina li suli'
'tan ni:' right here
'kute sina li suli'
'luka sina li suli'
'uta sina li suli'

I've just noticed Alanto's comments. I'll get back to that later.

janKipo
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby janKipo » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:55 pm

Well, 'meli' means "female", not "girl", so 'lili' is still needed. The 'jan' can be understood, so 'meli lili' seems about right.
He missed the 'an i"' problem, but it is crucial, nonetheless.
Sonja does allow that kind of phrasing but it is objectively wrong anyhow.
Don't drop the 'pi' and 'suli'.. 'ma kasi' ia "lawn, garden", etc., not "woods" (the way the idiom goes)
good catch on 'soweli pi ike mute' ('lon' also takes 'e' when it means "put in place" but not when it just means 'be at/on")
first direct quote. Needs quotes (and possibly 'nimi' in place of 'ni' -- working on streamlining all this).
[being red-green colorblind is a problem with this]
The whole disposal of Gramma could be tightened to something like 'soweli li pali e mokuu tan ona li lon poki e ona li seli e poki ni'
Good catch on missing 'li' (happens more often with 'lili' than just about anything).
'kama insa' doesn't work, though 'kama tawa/lon insa' does
Quotes again (important here to make clear where her remarks end.)
Quotes
At least 'soweli' should be in red just to come to Sonja standards.
I think "He didn't improve (achieve?) this either/even this" is red, unnecessary
Prob 'soweli Katu li moli' is red, unnecessary.
Quotes
Oops! peril of bilingualism: I missed 'pana mi; good catch!
Quotes
Dropping the 'e ni' for just the colon is one suggested simplification of all this, but it isn't legal yet. I am ahead of myself.
Here we have the simplification of just alternating speakers without intro, but it needs the quotes clearly in place,
I think, as I look again, that all these 'tan ni:'s probably should be 'tawa ni' since what we have here aare purposes for having these organs, not causes of them (the seeing, etc. comes after, not before).
Good point about better uses for hands
Alanto did a good job here, as did you.

jan Pina
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby jan Pina » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:34 pm

mi pali e pona toki lipu pi jan Len Lawa Loje Lili.
taso la mi jo e tenpo ike.
toki Inli e ni. "To hold you firmly" anu "To give you a big hug".
Toki Pona nimi mute seme?

mi wile li sike e sina kepeken luka tu mi.
mi wile li jo e sina kepeken luka.
mi wile poki e sina.
nimi mute ante seme?

o pana e sona sina.

----------------

I'm working on the story above to fix errors.
But having a hard time with it.
Can't translate to Toki Pona -"To hold you firmly" or "To give you a big hug".
A couple of variants are above.
Please help

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jan Alanto
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby jan Alanto » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:47 pm

I'd say "mi pali tawa pona pi toki ni." since 'toki' alone already means story.

"taso (no 'la') ni li ike mute." I didn't understand "mi jo e tenpo ike" before I read the translation. This expression (hard time) means "difficulty" thus "ike".

"toki Inli "To hold you firmly" anu toki Inli "to give you a big hug" li seme lon toki pona?" (What are these sentences in toki pona?) or "mi ken ala ante toki e toki Inli... tawa toki pona?" (I can't translate these sentences to toki pona). "toki Inli" means either "English (language)" or "English 'saying' (sentence)" [Could we say "toki Inli pi 'to hold you firmly' anu 'to give you a big hug'"?]. I like to use "kulupu nimi" for "sentence". Then "kulupu nimi Inli" instead of "toki Inli".

Ah! I forgot "sike" for "hug". ni li pona kin. "mi wile (no 'li') sike e sina kepeken luka tu mi." I think "kepeken luka" is already enough. "tu" would differentiate from using only one arm. "mi" is just redundant (How could I use someone else's arm?).

"mi wile (no 'li') jo e sina kepeken (Maybe 'lon') luka." and "mi wile poki e sina." are also good (I like "poki" because it evokes some comfortable warmth). Nevertheless none of those expresses "firmly" or "big hug", but this is easy: "mi wile sike wawa e sina kepeken luka." "mi wile jo wawa e sina." "mi wile poki wawa e sina." (Ugh, now this turned from "warmth" to "prison", better not... Or YES :twisted: in this Halloween tale :lol: )

"o pana e sona sina".

Now I see that green and black are very similar even to non-colorblinds. Better not to use color systems (though red seems to mark mistakes very well).

janKipo
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Re: len lawa loje

Postby janKipo » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:17 pm

or, for those of us who use 'pali' as a modal "try to", 'mi pali pona e toki ni'.
the 'pi' after 'toki Inli' is wrong; a quoted sentence is a single proper name and so has to modify its support noun ('toki Inli') directly (this is about the only time people use quotes correctly, alas).
'poki' is less desirable for "hug" since it suggests confinement, boxed in, and the like: more like an attendant at a funny farm than a loving gramma. Of course, it may be appropriate ere.
Nice work, Alanto.


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