Drive

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Drive

Postby janpona120 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:43 am

'noka' (which seem to require contact with a surface)
A wheel does it (contact with a surface), and is an organ of locomotion.
I didn't forget "noka" also means "support". Then a more probable "verbification" for it would be "to support", but I seldom see any motion related to it. Only that it is the locomotion organ,
Probably, some tp-words have dead meanings, like "support" or "organ of locomotion" for noka.
but the locomotion itself should be expressed with "tawa".
Here are few more organs of locomotions:

noka --> tawa
luka --> pana
oko --> kama
uta --> moku
wile <-> olin
kon --> lipu
ilo --> pali

janKipo
Posts: 2741
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Drive

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:14 pm

Wheels are not organs.
For the rest of your list, the relation between the two terms is very unclear.

natan
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:13 am

Re: Drive

Postby natan » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:07 pm

janKipo wrote:Wheels are not organs.
For the rest of your list, the relation between the two terms is very unclear.


A leg is an appendage (limb), not an organ.

janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Drive

Postby janKipo » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:00 pm

just following janpona on that; wheels aren't limbs either or any other part of a living creature, so not apt to be 'noka'.

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Drive

Postby janpona120 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:39 am

Wheels are not organs. For the rest of your list, the relation between the two terms is very unclear.
It depends on native idioms. So, Slavic languages have an idiom "to devoir by eyes". it is the same as to eat a food. A mouth does relocation of food from one place (a plate) to another (a stomach). Eyes do relocation of an image from one place (around a looker) to another (into a brain, into a virtual space). Also, eyes are the organ of mental locomotion, because they relocate you from the place where you are really "lon" to another place, where an object of your interest is. A dream (an imagination) is an organ of locomotion to the future or to the past.

"kon -- lipu" (air -- a leaf of a plant). An atmosphere has own hands and legs. Basically, it is a stream of wind ("linja kon"="luka kon", "noka kon"). One air stream is one a hand or a leg. A tornado swirl is obviously a leg of the Big Air Daemon, which makes as huge locomotion of cars as a football player does. Another couples do own types of locomotions. It is simple, who has a pregnant imagination. :) ... like Zeus with Palada.
A leg is an appendage (limb), not an organ
1) any organ has own function "f(x)=y".
2) A leg has own function -- locomotion
3) The leg is the organ.
-----------------------------------------------------
a->b, c->b, a=c
just following janpona on that; wheels aren't limbs either or any other part of a living creature, so not apt to be 'noka'.
1) wheels are organ of locomotion.
2) limbs are organ of locomotion.
3) "noka" is organ of locomotion.
4) wheel are limbs are "noka"
------------------------------------------------------
a=d, b=d, c=d -> (a=>b=>c) =>d

janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Drive

Postby janKipo » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:14 am

Well, the reasoning here is all fallacious if taken literally. A dog is alive. A carrot is alive. So a dog is a carrot.
I suppose some analogically connections are intended, but I confess I don't see them or, at least, don't see them as relevant to anything under discussion. The more explicit metaphors need to be tested out in tp use, though I don't hold out much hope for them.

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Drive

Postby janpona120 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:06 am

Well, the reasoning here is all fallacious if taken literally. A dog is alive. A carrot is alive. So a dog is a carrot.
Let us go back to the grounds. There are two types of comparison: identical (100%) and analogical (less 100%). If you conclude that "dog" is "carrot", it is correct with a little "namako" -- "A is B in a part of C", where "C" is common background. The dog and the carrot also has a common background. Even a few. For example, a food. So, a dog is a carrot, in a part of foodability. Also, changeability can be: identical (100%) and analogical (less 100%, substitution). Of course, in some situations a dog (as a food) is a carrot (as a food), because here a verb "is" is not about identical comparison, only in some sort of substitution.
organ of locomotion.png
noka: organ of locomotion
organ of locomotion.png (4.6 KiB) Viewed 211 times
My examples use the same formula "A is B in a part of C". The wheel is the leg in a part of organ of locomotion. Wheels and legs have common function, so they are changeabile within this functioning. If your car is broken, you may use your legs. If your legs are broken, you may use "wheels" for the same function -- locomotion.

More over, even an umbrella can substitute as wheels as legs. In some functional context an umbrella is the wheels, is the legs.
mary poppins, fly.png
mary poppins, umbrella, wind -- organ of locomotion
mary poppins, fly.png (29.57 KiB) Viewed 211 times

janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Drive

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:49 pm

Ok, got it. There is a category, means of locomotion, to which wheels and legs and even occasionally umbrellas belong. That is a fact to be noted in a semantic map ( maybe not the umbrella) but I don't see anything following from that in terms of language usage. ( I confess I've lost the main thread of this discussion, which appears to have been about the best way to say "drive", in it several senses, in tp. If so, I don,t see how this fits in.)

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Drive

Postby janpona120 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:29 am

to have been about the best way to say "drive", in it several senses, in tp
In my understanding, "drive" has three key words:
  • jan li lawa -- manager, commander, leader, herder
  • jan li tawa -- passenger
  • jan li noka -- mithologically, a centaur. In modern variants: rickshaw, taxi-driver, a pilot (as an inseparable part of a transport)
These variants emphasize different parts of sentence:
  • If you want to accentuate a leading sense of driving, use "lawa".
  • If you want to point a movement, use "tawa".
  • If you want to emphasize a transport(man), use "noka"
.
jan li... lawa, tawa, noka.png
jan li: lawa, tawa, noka (from: rumvi.com)

janKipo
Posts: 2741
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Drive

Postby janKipo » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:33 am

Interesting, but the 'noka' part is entirely in your world, not tp's. But the 'lawa e' v. 'tawa kepeken' is genuine, though most people seem content to use 'tawa' even when they are behind the wheel.


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