Drive

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
natan
Posts: 28
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Drive

Postby natan » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:56 am

For example: I drive a car
tawa = moving, would tawa = drive so that mi tawa e tomo tawa is I drive a car?
mi tawa e tomo tawa could translate as I am moving a/the car, or I am going towards a/the car (but that's just how toki pona goes).

Another example: I drive away the animal
Would could write mi tawa weka e soweli, or would mi weka e soweli suffice? (If one uses jan Lope's dictionary, weka (e) could be vt. to get rid of.)

Another example: We drive towards home
If tawa = drive, we have a problem: tawa = towards also. In that case we would have mi tawa tawa e tomo. (pu says we is mi, though it is often written as mi mute.)
mi tawa e tomo, which would translate as we go towards home could be a simple substitute (and remember, toki pona was designed to express things simply).

janpona120
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Re: Drive

Postby janpona120 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:06 am

For example: I drive a car
tawa = moving, would tawa = drive so that mi tawa e tomo tawa is I drive a car?
mi tawa e tomo tawa could translate as I am moving a/the car, or I am going towards a/the car (but that's just how toki pona goes).
I drive a car -- mi lawa e tomo tawa
Another example: I drive away the animal
Would could write mi tawa weka e soweli, or would mi weka e soweli suffice? (If one uses jan Lope's dictionary, weka (e) could be vt. to get rid of.)
I drive away the animal -- mi lawa weka e soweli
Another example: We drive towards home
If tawa = drive, we have a problem: tawa = towards also. In that case we would have mi tawa tawa e tomo. (pu says we is mi, though it is often written as mi mute.)
mi tawa e tomo, which would translate as we go towards home could be a simple substitute (and remember, toki pona was designed to express things simply).
We drive towards home -- mi mute li noka tawa e tomo (because, "noka" has a mission for relocation of body)

janKipo
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Re: Drive

Postby janKipo » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:40 am

As janpona points out, 'lawa' is the usual word for "drive" applied to cars and the like,"control, command, direct" (derivative -- very -- from its basic meaning of "head"). Driving away animals is most likely 'kama weka e soweli' "cause the animals to be distant"; in any case, 'lawa' usually plays no role in it, nor 'tawa neither. 'lawa' might enter in if the driver were the herdsman, 'jan pi lawa soweli (or, probably, 'mani' "herd animal")' for he would indeed lawa weka e mani ona.

Alas, janpona's language, while looking like tp, often is not, for 'noka' is not standard tp for "go", except, possibly, for "walk". "We drive toward home" is just 'mi mute li tawa tomo'. "We go toward home (the "drive" is either contextual or added on 'kepeken tomo tawa'). 'tawa' is basically the preposition "toward" which picks up the meaning "move, go" inferentially when used in verblike situations. As a preposition, its object -- the goal or destination -- is simply expressed by a noun phrase immediately after the preposition (or its modifiers), not as a direct object (with 'e') like a verb. 'taw' can be made into a transitive verb as a causative, with the direct object then the thing the subject causes to move (typically, to some place). So 'mi tawa a tomo tawa' means "I moved the car", with driving it a possibility but not one suggested by the form, whichis parallel to "I move the box" 'mi tawa e poki'. And, just as I can move a box home 'mi tawa tomo e poki', I can move a car home 'mi tawa tomo e tomo tawa'. So, once you get the 'tawa' into a sentence for the going, you do not have to repeat it for the destination, although you may want to if the sentence gest too complicated otherwise: 'mi tawa tomo pi mama mama mi e poki' "I took the box to my grandmother's place" might be easier to read as 'mi tawa e poki tawa tomo pi mama mama mi'.

'weka' is an adjective meaning "away, distant", so again, a transitive form would be a causative meaning "cause to be distant", which clearly covers driving away. ('weka' is also used reflexively, so that 'mi weka' means "I go away"-- this may be a regular feature, since it works for 'tawa', too).

natan
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Re: Drive

Postby natan » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:08 pm

janpona en jan Kipo,

I somehow skipped over lawa when perusing the dictionary. Not sure how.

So yes, mi lawa e tomo tawa is pona tawa mi.

As per jan Kipo, mi (tawa) weka e soweli is probably better said as mi kama weka e soweli, as I am not a herdmans in this instance.

All I needed do for the last one was drop the 'e' to say mi tawa tomo (or mi mute li tawa tomo for those that prefer) for "we go towards home", which while not specifically stating that driving is happening, would mean that given the context on the sentence.

janpona's mention of "noka as mission for relocation of body" make no sense to me here. Would not a the same thing happen when driving a car (a body is being relocated after all)?

pona

janKipo
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Re: Drive

Postby janKipo » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:23 pm

mU again -- the semantic side this time, where all tp words have been redefined in vaguely related ways.
Notice that "merely dropping an 'e'" is not a minor move but a major change in the grammar, since 'tawa' goes from being a transitive (causative) verb back to just being a preposition and 'tomo' from being a direct object to be a prepositional object -- a whole different chain of grammar rules swing into play.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: Drive

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:41 pm

jan Natan o,

I drive a car. — mi lawa e tomo tawa.
mi tawa e tomo tawa. — I move the car.
mi tawa tomo tawa. — I'm going towards the car.
I drive away the animal. — mi weka e soweli. (also "mi tawa weka e soweli" and "mi lon weka e soweli" should work.)
mi kama weka e soweli. — I'm starting to get rid of the animal.
I'm causing the animal to disappear. — tan mi la soweli li kama weka.
mi tawa tawa e tomo. — I'm moving the house towards movement. (Not what you want to say.)
We are going towards the house. — mi tawa tomo. ("mi tawa tawa tomo" should work, too, but that would be redundant, obviously.)
mi tawa e tomo. — We are moving the house. (Not what you want to say.)

mi tawa.
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

natan
Posts: 28
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Re: Drive

Postby natan » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:24 pm

jan Tepan o,

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:I drive away the animal. — mi weka e soweli. (also "mi tawa weka e soweli" and "mi lon weka e soweli" should work.)
mi kama weka e soweli. — I'm starting to get rid of the animal.


That would fit with how sona (et. al.) is used, e.g.
mi sona (e ...) — I know ...
mi sona ala (e ...) — I don't know ...
mi kama sona (e ...) — I am learning/starting to know ...

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:I drive a car. — mi lawa e tomo tawa.
mi tawa e tomo tawa. — I move the car.
mi tawa tomo tawa. — I'm going towards the car.


Yes, they all make sense.

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:mi tawa tawa e tomo. — I'm moving the house towards movement. (Not what you want to say.)
We are going towards the house. — mi tawa tomo. ("mi tawa tawa tomo" should work, too, but that would be redundant, obviously.)
mi tawa e tomo. — We are moving the house. (Not what you want to say.)


mi tawa tawa e tomo didn't seem right when I wrote it, and justly so.

janpona120
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Re: Drive

Postby janpona120 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:11 am

janpona's mention of "noka as mission for relocation of body" make no sense to me here. Would not a the same thing happen when driving a car (a body is being relocated after all)?
"noka" is an organ of locomotion. So, has a fish the organs of locomotion? Has a snail the organ of locomotion? Butterfly? Serpent? Parachute? ... Spermatosoid, in the end? Each active subject has own organ of locomotion. It is not only leg. It may be everything. In the future, I believe, "noka" will be used as a verb. Now I see a discussion (on FB) about a verbing of word "uta" (to kiss, and so on), for example.

And still one moment. When you are sitting in the car, we have two variants:

-- you relocate himself by the car (here, you are -- an active subject)
-- the car relocates you (here, the car is an active subject, you are -- passive object)

In Slavic languages it is a legal sentence -- a car has relocated me to home (though I was sitting as a driver). Guess, it will be more obvious, when the cars will have a computer system for auto-driving. Of course, I will try not publish variants with "noka" (subject driving) as little as possible. But, I will keep it in my mind for future time. ;)

For example, I keep in my mind:

jan li moku e kili
jan li noka e kili
jan li lawa e kili (tawa poki)

... and do some conclusions for myself.

janKipo
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Re: Drive

Postby janKipo » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:30 pm

Nice (and surprising) to find myself agreeing with janpona. 'noka' is indeed the organ of locomotion so on hymans legs and feet, on gastropods he organ that gives them their name (of course, it is also a tongue, but then ..). whether it is also the flagellum of a sperm is another question, since, while it is an organ of locomotion, it is at the back, not the bottom of the cell and 'noka' also means "bottom" (but the distinction may be arbitrary for monocells).
More to the point, neither 'tawa' (which starts with a goal, direction) nor 'noka' (which seem to require contact with a surface) is an ideal word for motion other than locomotion (piston in a cylinder, say). But nothing else works either. 'noka' might have been the tp word for "walk" and the kie (and may be yet through 'tawa noka' ) but it didn't happen to be. Language is like that. I think "relocate" is more clearly 'tawa' than noka in any case, but I have no trouble with the car taking me home, even if I am driving 'tomo tawa li tawa tomo e mi' (Sonja would love this). And it seems shorter than 'mi tawa tomo kepeken tomo tawa.'

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jan Alanto
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Re: Drive

Postby jan Alanto » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:05 pm

Since Stephan stated in the Facebook group, I didn't forget "noka" also means "support". Then a more probable "verbification" for it would be "to support", but I seldom see any motion related to it. Only that it is the locomotion organ, but the locomotion itself should be expressed with "tawa".


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