Full and Empty

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
natan
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:13 am

Full and Empty

Postby natan » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:44 am

I have not found mention of "full" or "empty" in any literature I have perused. So looking through *pu*, I settled on the following:

"lupa = hole = empty"
E.g. "poki li lupa"
The cup is empty

"pini = completed = full"
E.g. "poki li pini
The cup is full.

Any thoughts? Is there already a standard convention for full/empty?

janpona120
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 am

Re: Full and Empty

Postby janpona120 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:12 am

Empty is "zero"-quantity of something -- "ala X". Full is "all"-quantity of something -- "ali X".

In mU-notation:
-- "lupa jen ala ijo" (a hole, having no matter).... ("poki jen ala" -- a box is empty in general)
-- "lupa jen ali ijo" (a hole, having all matter).... ("poki jen ali" -- a box is full without detalization)

janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Full and Empty

Postby janKipo » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:49 am

'pini' is indeed the old word list expression for "full". There is none give for "empty", but the likelihood is that it would have been 'ala' or some such. Since 2009 (when the list was done) , 'jo' and 'jo ali' have been used for "full" and 'jo (e) ala' for "empty" (most recently in the Bible translation). 'lupa' makes sense, though holes can be full or empty and still be holes. (Needless to say, I hope, the discussion involving 'jen' is not relevant to tp.)

natan
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Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:13 am

Re: Full and Empty

Postby natan » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:26 pm

jan Kipo,

Is a filled hole still a hole?

So poki lupa or poka ala could technically mean (a/the) empty cup? But manbe the latter is the better in this case. Likewise poki li lupa or poki li ala could both mean "the/a cup is empty"? But would the latter make more sense to the broader community than the former?

janpona,

Yes, ali = all, so poki li ali would work I guess too, as would pini = full as jan Kipo points out.

I will not enter into discussion re "mU-notation" here, or on the ijo ante thread. I wish no part of it.

pona

janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Full and Empty

Postby janKipo » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:19 pm

Wise you, mU wanders too far from tp or anything much like it.
'poki li ala/ali' literally means "the box is nothing/everything" which is rather different from "empty/full" 'poki li jo e ala' (and maybe even 'li jo ala') works for empty, but 'jo e ali' goes way beyond "full" to Pandora's box or a cornucopia or Indra's navel jewel or so. 'jo ali' does work, however.

natan
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:13 am

Re: Full and Empty

Postby natan » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:42 pm

Agree jan Kipo, poki li ala would interpret as "the box is nothing" as opposed to "the box is empty". poki li jo e ala "the box contains nothing" works too, and maybe that is the better option to avoid any confusion.

poki li jo e ali does seem a little like a Pandora's box (e.g. the box contains life).

Can we find consensus here?
empty = jo e ala (e.g. poki li jo e ala, or tomo li jo e ala, or lipu li jo e ala)
full = pini (e.g. poki li pini, or tomo li pini, or lipu li pini)

Or maybe:
full = pini (e.g. tomo li pini)
empty = pini ala (e.g. tomo li pini ala)

janKipo
Posts: 2825
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Full and Empty

Postby janKipo » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:59 pm

'pini ala' could mean "empty" is is more likely to be taken as just not full, assuming 'pini' is taken to mean "full". Things like 'tomo li pini' are problematic, of course, since they mean "the construction is finished" as well as that it is full. tp is full of puzzles like that ("context will decide -- and it does, sometimes).

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Location: Berlin

Re: Full and Empty

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:15 pm

jan Natan o,

I perceive "lupa" as "empty" (and "hollow"), too. "full" would be "lupa ala" then. "jo e ala" might work, too.

"pona"
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

natan
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:13 am

Re: Full and Empty

Postby natan » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:30 pm

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:jan Natan o,

I perceive "lupa" as "empty" (and "hollow"), too. "full" would be "lupa ala" then. "jo e ala" might work, too.

"pona"


If lupa = "empty", then lupa ala = "not empty", though that would not necessarily mean that it is "full" (it is just not empty).
Just as if pini = "full", then pini ala = "not full", though that would not necessarily mean that it is "empty" (it is just not full).

Therefore:
poki li lupa — cup is empty
poki li lupa ala — cup is not empty (though may not be full either)
poki li pini — cup is full
poki li pini ala — cup is not full (though may not be empty either)

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janTepanNetaPelin
Posts: 127
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Location: Berlin

Re: Full and Empty

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:16 am

natan wrote:
If lupa = "empty", then lupa ala = "not empty", though that would not necessarily mean that it is "full" (it is just not empty).
Just as if pini = "full", then pini ala = "not full", though that would not necessarily mean that it is "empty" (it is just not full).

Therefore:
poki li lupa — cup is empty
poki li lupa ala — cup is not empty (though may not be full either)
poki li pini — cup is full
poki li pini ala — cup is not full (though may not be empty either)


Yes, "lupa ala" is not necessarily "fully filled", maybe just a little bit. It makes me wonder though if "lupa" itself is "fully empty".

ala li lon insa poki. — The cup is empty.
ala li lon ala insa poki. — There is no nothing in the cup. It's full.
ijo li lon insa poki. — There is something in the cup. It's not empty.

I would avoid "pini" for "full". pu says: "ago, completed, ended, finished, past". A "poki pini" would be therefore a cup from the past or a finished cup. (If you're evil or a beginner you might even argue that if someone has finished their cup, it's empty.)
jan Tepan: "o pilin pona o pu!"
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona


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