Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

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janKipo
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Re: Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:58 pm

That is just a strange definition of "topic" and so much closer to the more general use of 'la' for context, in a very broad sense. My interpretation of 'la' is generally just that of 'pu', with a couple of additions that have arisen in the community and whose relation to "context" is a little shaky. But then, pu allows some odd contexts as well, as in 'ike la' "unfortunately" and such like. If you read the list of uses of 'la', you will see how the notion of context gets attenuated.

loteni
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Re: Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

Postby loteni » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:06 pm

From reading your list, which was and is an extremely useful resource, that I was very glad to find :)

I came to the conclusion that as far as I had the mental powers to work out, the uses were consistent with pu.

For instance; ike la -- this is just setting up the context of "bad", so the statement that follows it, is a statement that is in that context; ie unfortunate.

I remember you use ante la for otherwise ? again the context is setup that the statement that follows is "different, altered, changed, other", in the context of "other" - this.

Another was sama la - you use/report that is similarly ... again context of what is the "the same" - this... etc...
Follower of the official dialect of toki pona as presented in the official book; Toki Pona, The Language of Good by Sonja Lang.

janKipo
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Re: Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:31 pm

These have very different sources from, say 'tenpo pini la' or from one another (well, 'ante la' and 'sama la' are, not surprisingly, very similar). And these are different again from 'pini la' and 'tan ni la' and, of course 'S la'.

loteni
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Re: Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

Postby loteni » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:22 pm

Well, things are used in many ways, if you just pick up on one instance and think that is some standard you might miss things.

tenpo pini la mi moku -- depends on context, it is probably; in the past, I ate...but tenpo pini la isnt just that;
tenpo pini la ali li moli seli -- this is now in the most future time possible -- aka the end of time

things aren't really tensed in tp, tenpo pini is often setting up a context of a time that has gone before, but it can mean so many other things. You really need to learn the way "la" is used, not just learn a singular usage of a form that means many other things.

pini la mi toki e ijo -- to finish, i say something / ? Sure it can mean "finally..." but here might just as well mean, I've already finished saying things... pini la A -- most probably though is going to be making a statement that A is something that is over/finished/ended.

Less pini la mi moku -- finally I eat.
More pini la mi moku -- me eating is finished -- ive stopped eating...
Last edited by loteni on Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Follower of the official dialect of toki pona as presented in the official book; Toki Pona, The Language of Good by Sonja Lang.

janKipo
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Re: Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:57 pm

The end times are 'pini tenpo' ordinarily, though a similar reading of 'tenpo pini' is possible if arduous.
I think that using 'la' constructions to directly affect the internals of a sentence will cause unnecessary trouble. To say, 'pini la mi moku' for 'mi pini moku' requires a number of new transformational rules for which I see no justification elsewhere in the language so far. Maybe it is the wave of the future, but the ripples have not yet arrived. Certainly not enough to claim that it can really work this way.

loteni
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Re: Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

Postby loteni » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:54 pm

Well that is interesting ;

pini tenpo -- end of time -- probably better suited to the end point of time in the universe.

tenpo pini -- end times -- probably better suited to local shops closing down and what not.

Although you could use either for either, depending on how dramatic you wanted to be.

"la" just is that powerful and expressive, you just seem to use a more limited version of it. And it doesnt require any additional rules or really modify parts of the sentence, it is just what you get for free from correct application of the context setting rule that it is.
Follower of the official dialect of toki pona as presented in the official book; Toki Pona, The Language of Good by Sonja Lang.

janKipo
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Re: Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:06 pm

Idioms are just common expressions used frequently. In tp none of them, as a string of words, is restricted to a given meaning, but when you come across one, the idiomatic is the best first bet, unless the context has been set up to derail that train or you later work against. So, whatever a string of words CAN mean, in most contexts it DOES mean the idiom. That may be restricting in some ways, but it is liberaing in others, since it allows rapid speech without a lot of expression creating. When you do want to create an expression, you still have all the material you need -- but you have to be aware of what other uses are out there.

janAleje
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Re: Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

Postby janAleje » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:01 am

Thanks to both of you for your extremely helpful suggestions and resources! I'm a lot clearer on la now :D

janpona120
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Re: Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

Postby janpona120 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:18 am

Reply to janAleje:

You also may apply a key-word method. For "la" the key word is a "situation" -- what a situation is around me?

Look some examples:

  • "suno la" -- it means that the situation is "sunny", "bright"... the "sun" is a field of situation
  • "walo la" -- it means that the situation is "white", "clear"... walo la sina olin e ona : (the situation is clear, you love her)

  • "tenpo la" -- the time has come... tenpo la moku : it means that"the time to eat" or (the time is well to eat)
  • "pona la ona li moku" -- the situation is good and in this situation he/she/it is eating
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • "jan la" -- the talk is about some person, the person is a key to the situation, VIP -- the very important person
  • "nasa la" -- the situation is: complicated, confusing... stupid, crazy...
  • "seli la" -- the situation is hot

janKipo
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Re: Use of "la" vs. putting adj./adv. after verb?

Postby janKipo » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:41 pm

"Situation" is a good alternative to the usual "condition", but neither of them quite gets to the richness of the various uses (see the tpnimi blog) to which 'la' is put. Of course, not every possible 'la' phrase has been made an idiom, so there are always new possibilities, but many have and they provide patterns for other cases.
'suno la' and 'walo la' are not yet taken over and they might be used as you suggest, although no other idioms (yet) speak directly to weather conditions
'tenpo la' and a whole array of elaborations on that ('tenpo pini' 'tenpo suli pini', ....) have been given over to placements in time (another tpnimi), so 'tenpo la' itself has become "at a time, once upon a time", "now is the time", although that seems like a good thing for some 'la' phrases to do.
'pona la' is the lead member of a bunch of attitudinals, commenting on the following sentence. It is usually translated as "fortunately, happily" or some such.
'jan la' is not used, but looks a lot like 'mi la', 'sina la' and 'jan San la' which are all opinion assigners: "in my opinion", "according to you", "John says" and the like. 'jan la' looks like a good hearsay marker; probably better than 'kute la'.
'nasa la' is an attitudinal again: "strange to say, absurdly enough, ..."
;seli la' is free and looks to go with 'suno la' in the weather conditions group.


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