mi sona ala

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
soweliPeka
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mi sona ala

Postby soweliPeka » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:57 pm

Firstly, YAY FORUMS YOU LIVE!

So, a couple of questions. I don't have the official toki pona book, but was reading the preface on Amazon.

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sina pu a!
You're holding the toki pona book!


What the french toast does 'pu' mean? To consult the official toki pona book? To have the official toki pona book?
Either way, I will never use this word in writings, unless it's meaning gets changed to be more broad and inclusive. Right now, my understanding of 'pu' is that it is very exclusive, and that the "official toki pona book" is the be all, say all, end all. I don't like that, personally; at least not as a word in its own right. /soapbox

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mi lukin e kon mi.
Through a process of soul searching, ...


'kon' can mean soul. I get that and like that. But coupled with...

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tenpo pini la mi wile sona e kon ale kepeken nimi lili.
Toki Pona was my philosophical attempt at understanding the meaning of life in 120 words.


Does 'kon' mean life as well? As in, not specifically 'soul', but like 'mi kon a!' equates to 'I live!'

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ona li olin e toki pona.
[no english]


I was under the, apparently incorrect, assumption that 'olin' only applied to people. E.g., I can 'olin' my wife or son, but can't 'olin' a taco or a car. Care to steer me right?

Lastly,

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mi pali e nasin toki lili. ona li pona e toki insa mi.
...I designed a simple communication system to simplify my thoughts.


This leaves me wondering about 'pilin'. I formerly used it to also mean 'thought' or 'thinking'. Was this incorrect, and it only applies to physical and emotional feeling?

Please don't take this rant as a big complain-fest. Honest questions. I'll be getting the book hopefully soon, so that may answer some of my questions.

janKipo
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Re: mi sona ala

Postby janKipo » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:03 pm

pu has been less unifying than might have been hoped. It is useful to note that jan Sonja says explicitly that it is (just) how she uses tp. Since she started the language, her usage deserves respect. But she was absent from the community for large parts of a decade and has not acquainted herself with what happened in that period, so her usage does not always agree with that of those who worked through that period. Nor does her usage override that of the old hands, since she did not work through the problems that those hands solved. In short, pu is a good start with needs to be used carefully and tentatively in several places (starting with the vocabulary -- several words she leaves out are surely not going to disappear, several she combines will remain separate and one she adds will not catch on except, as here, as an English expression referring somewhat dismissively to the book).

I will not get into an argument with anyone about private philosophical/psychological terminology; that field is too littered with nonsense. I take it she is using 'kon' for some psycho-spiritual "reality", not particularly a biological one (although that would make sense, given the equation of breath with life), So she is comparing her inner experiences with the external (suprapersonal) aspects here. Seems a fair (at least, usual) game to play.

Everybody who speaks English uses 'olin' for "likes a lot" occasionally. I wish she hadn't done it in a definitive place, but she did, and it was a screw-up.

Thoughts are a big topic. Here she seems to be talking not so much about the general process but about the particular cases of formulating then into coherent systems, capable of outward expression, even if never so expressed. So, she uses the terminology of external expression but marks it as internal only. The simplification is linguistic in nature, so the linguitic nature of what is simplified is made explicit. But these are all pilin nonetheless.

You are welcome to rant about pu here all you want. I am not a great fan, as noted.

soweliPeka
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Re: mi sona ala

Postby soweliPeka » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:50 pm

janKipo wrote:pu has been less unifying than might have been hoped. It is useful to note that jan Sonja says explicitly that it is (just) how she uses tp. Since she started the language, her usage deserves respect. But she was absent from the community for large parts of a decade and has not acquainted herself with what happened in that period, so her usage does not always agree with that of those who worked through that period. Nor does her usage override that of the old hands, since she did not work through the problems that those hands solved. In short, pu is a good start with needs to be used carefully and tentatively in several places (starting with the vocabulary -- several words she leaves out are surely not going to disappear, several she combines will remain separate and one she adds will not catch on except, as here, as an English expression referring somewhat dismissively to the book).

That's a good analysis and something I will take to heart. My biggest worry with the toki pona book is that new people take it as word and law, and disregard the progress and work done by the community over the past 10-15 years.

janKipo wrote:Everybody who speaks English uses 'olin' for "likes a lot" occasionally. I wish she hadn't done it in a definitive place, but she did, and it was a screw-up.

I'm sure I've done this by mistake before, but I've tried hard to pound into my consciousness that 'olin' is far more profound than we English-speaking natives use 'love'. Something more akin to the Greek 'agape' or 'storge'. It just through me for a loop when mama pi toki pona used the word that way.

janKipo wrote:Thoughts are a big topic. Here she seems to be talking not so much about the general process but about the particular cases of formulating then into coherent systems, capable of outward expression, even if never so expressed. So, she uses the terminology of external expression but marks it as internal only. The simplification is linguistic in nature, so the linguitic nature of what is simplified is made explicit. But these are all pilin nonetheless.

Just a random thought - how hard would discoursing on philosophy, existentialism in particular, be in toki pona? I could try my hand at it, but that might be too ultracrepidarian, to use a fun word I just learned.

janKipo wrote:You are welcome to rant about pu here all you want. I am not a great fan, as noted.

I may be alone in this, but I love the 14-or-so missing/obsolete/apocryphal words. 'majuna', 'kan', 'pake', etc. I sometimes use these in my personal writing or day to day talking. I don't have all of them memorized, but I love them. They add so much more color and 'roundness' to this language. They make it feel more alive for me. It is so much more enjoyable for me, for whatever reason, when I use these words. But, I don't use them online simply because not everyone agrees with this viewpoint.
That said, I loathe the word 'pu'. Absolutely loathe it. When I found out its meaning, almost totally ruined the language for me. It made the language feel trivial or commercial. It's a word built-in to the language to artificially elevate the status of a book about the language, and the book isn't even in the language itself. To me, it is as narrow-defined and useful as 'kijetesantakalu'. If it's meaning was expanded to something more like 'reference the body of knowledge and wisdom that the community has brought forth', it would be SO much more meaningful and deep. But, as it stands, it is shallow and I will use all the forces within me to never again use the word 'pu' as it is currently presented to the community.

janKipo
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Re: mi sona ala

Postby janKipo » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:46 pm

I don't think that pu will be divisive either. There are too many people from before forcing newbs kicking and screaming into the developed language. And, to be sure, there just isn't that much difference, mainly vocabulary and a few minor oddities of rules (no 'e' with kepeken', for one that turns up a lot). Or the 'olin' one, which is, of course, and English problem and we are getting more folk from other languages (though most know English as well, of course).
Philosophy is a bitch in tp, though actually Existentialism is easier than some -- analytic philosophies tend to hinge on fine shades of meaning and tp doesn't have any. But existentialist thought is fuzzier and so fit in better with tp (but it is also gloomier, which tp is supposed not to be).

I like some of the oldish words (mainly ones that came in after I did but didn't make the pu cut) like 'namako' and 'monsuta', but the ones that were gone before I came don't attract me in the same way (I have toyed with 'pake' and sort like a word for "square"), Some, like the next couple of numerals, I don't care for at all (the number problem needs a better solution than these band-aids). Ditto some of the other new ones that weren't around long, like 'apeja'. And, of course, there is 'pu' in its final incarnation. Yuck! Ptui! I liked it as a replacement for 'ni:' and didn't mind it as a word for texts. And I kinds like your suggested expansion on the notion, but it still seems too specific in a language of broadest possible generalizations.

I am, of course, going to continue using the words I like in the way I learned them -- or came to use them after a lot of wear and tear -- and ignore pu when it is inconvenient to follow it.

jan_Anti
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Re: mi sona ala

Postby jan_Anti » Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:40 pm

After reading Pu last summer, I made a document with the new official dictionary and some observations about POS and syntax that I inferred from reading the texts. There is also a short list that highlights the differences between Pu Toki Pona and what I've dubbed Vernacular Toki Pona (i.e. Toki Pona as it has been used by the community for several years, c.f. the Classic Word List (Improved)). Now that the forums are back, I can finally share it: http://www.docdroid.net/edaa/lawa-toki.pdf.html

Now, don't start hatin' on me -- I personally disagree with most of the changes. Lukin and sona now meaning 'to try' and 'to know how to' is neat, but that's about it. This was just made for people who don't have the book and would like a quick summary of what changes Pu introduced.

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jan Wesi
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Re: mi sona ala

Postby jan Wesi » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:40 pm

jan_Anti wrote:After reading Pu last summer, I made a document with the new official dictionary and some observations about POS and syntax that I inferred from reading the texts. There is also a short list that highlights the differences between Pu Toki Pona and what I've dubbed Vernacular Toki Pona (i.e. Toki Pona as it has been used by the community for several years, c.f. the Classic Word List (Improved)). Now that the forums are back, I can finally share it: http://www.docdroid.net/edaa/lawa-toki.pdf.html

Now, don't start hatin' on me -- I personally disagree with most of the changes. Lukin and sona now meaning 'to try' and 'to know how to' is neat, but that's about it. This was just made for people who don't have the book and would like a quick summary of what changes Pu introduced.


pona, jan Anti! This is a great summary. Her bits with "lon" and "kepeken" really get under my nerves and I choose to ignore them (while I have begrudgingly accepted "pu"). I was a bit disappointed by pu, but I'm glad I bought it. The hieroglyphs and sign language are the most rewarding part of the book IMO.
jan ali li palisa pi kasi sama :D

janKipo
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Re: mi sona ala

Postby janKipo » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:03 pm

a few notes on vernacular tp.
1 so far as I can see no words have fallen out of use since the appearance of pu, we need to keep the full array available.
2 POS give the basic form for the words but almost every word can perform in any role, it's meaning derived from its POS. Prepositions do keep their complements in every role, but they, too, can be transitive verbs as well.
3 'anpa' has always been a noun and need 'lon' to be part of a prepositional phrase. similarly, 'Lon' has always been a preposition.
4 'kepeken' is still permitted for languages.
5 'lukin' doesn't seem to be used as a modal, but 'alasa' is.
6 the use of broad quantifiers for specific numbers is maybe even a worse idea than 'pu'
7 prepositional phrases as modifiers of nouns have always been a part of tp, the only change has been to make them conform to the 'pi' rule.


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