akesi kon tu

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
jan_endy
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:07 am
Location: ma Kanse

akesi kon tu

Postby jan_endy » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:33 pm

Toki.
Here is a text I wrote to learn toki pona.
Can somebody have a look at it and tell me if there are some errors?
Do you like it?
Thanks a lot
Endi

akesi kon tu

tenpo pini mute la jan Voltikeln li lawa ike mute pi ma Plitani. ona li jo ike e
supa lawa pi lawa moli. ona li moli e mije lili pi lawa moli. taso mije lili si
n li moli ala li tawa weka. Jan Voltikeln li monsuta e mije lili ni. ona li wile
pali e tomo sewi. tomo ni li suli mute li sewi mute. jan aka li ken utala e tom
o ni.

pali li kama lon nena suli. taso sinpin lili li pakala li kama e kiwen lili. pal
i li kama e tenpo mute. sinpin li pakala e tenpo mute. jan sona li toki e ni taw
a jan Voltikeln: sinpin li sewi ken kepeken telo loje pi jan lili. jan lili ni l
i luka tu li jo ala e mama mije.

jan utala pi lawa li weka li jo wile e jan lili ni. utala li tawa e ma tomo. jan
Mellin li kama tawa ona li toki e ni:
"sina wile e mi. mi luka tu. mi jo ala e mama mije."
utala li kute e toki nasa. taso utala li pana e jan lili tawa lawa.

Jan Mellin li toki e ni: "lawa o, mi toki e tomo seli pakala tawa sina. akesi ko
n tu li lape lon nena anpa. sinpin li wawa e akesi monsi. akesi li tawa sike li
pakala e tomo seli. mi toki ike la sina seli mi."

jan pali pi lawa li pali insa e nena. ona li lukin kama e kiwen suli tu. ona li
pali insa e kiwen li lukin akesi kon. akesi kon ni li walo li suli mute li tawa
kon li mu ike. jan pali li pali insa e kiwen sin li lukin akesi kon sin. akesi k
on ni li loje li suli pi akesi kon sin.

akesi kon tu li lukin e sin. ona li utala li kipisi li seli. utala li tenpo e su
no wan tu. akesi kon loje li kipisi e sike wawa pi akesi kon walo. akesi kon wal
o li moli li tawa anpa li kama e kon seli. akesi kon loje li sewi. jan ala li lu
kin ona.

jan Voltikeln toki e ni tawa jan Mellin :
"sina toki sona e utala ni tawa mi."
jan Mellin li toki e ni:
"akesi kon walo li sina. akesi kon loje li jan Utel Penlakon li mije lili pi law
a moli. tenpo suno wan tu la jan Utel li kama li moli e sina."

jan Voltikeln li monsuta e ni. ona li poki lon tomo ona. taso jan Utel li kama l
i utala seli e tomo. jan Voltikeln li moli. jan Utel li kama e lawa pi ma Plitan
i. jan Mellin li kama e jan sona pi jan Utel.

janKipo
Posts: 2928
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: akesi kon tu

Postby janKipo » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:31 pm

This is very good. It moves well and shows several touches of ingenuity. So, though these notes seem to run on a bit, the overall intention is praise and ajust a little lilygilding.

Voltikeln. no v in tp, no consonant clusters in tp, no ti in tp. starting from Vortigern, there are two main paths to the name: spelling and rhythm. Spelling puts in all the letters, buffered by vowels of your choice, so Walisikelen or so with different vowels. The rhythm method just represents each syllable with it main sound, so Wasiken or so. Of course, you can do a bit of each as well. Similarly, Britain comes out Piten and Merlin is just Melin. btw, your name is better Enti, since tp has neither d nor y.

'lawa pi Ike mute' "very evil ruler', not 'lawa ike mute' "many evil rulers"

"He evilly had a head surface of dead heads" I don't get "head surface". I suppose you have dead rulers, so "ruler table"? (but that is Arthur seeping into my thinking)?

'jan ala' for 'jan aka'

'sinpin lili li pakala li kama e kiwen lili' ? maybe, without 'e', "a little wall/ a few walls broke and became little stones". with 'e' I don't get it.

"Construction took a long time". not sure how best to say this, probably with 'lon' but I am not sure. 'e' is pretty surely wrong. The next is definitely, 'tenpo mute la sinpin li pakala' or equivalently 'sinpin li pakala lon tenpo mute'. incidentally, the standard word for building a structure is 'tomo', but that does make for some confusion here.

'sinpin li sewi ken kepeken telo loje pi jan lili. jan lili ni li luka tu li jo ala e mama mije.' This says "The wall is possibly high using children's blood. These children are a group of seven and fatherless" I suppose you mean "A wall this high needs the blood of a child who is seven years old and fatherless." 'sinpin pi sewi sama li wile e telo loje pi jan lili ni. ni li jan pi sike suno luka tu li jo ala e mama mije'

'jan utala lawa', 'pi' needs two words after it.

'toki e ijo pi tomo' "say something about the tower", you can't say the tower. 'lape lon anpa nena' "sleep in the underneath of the hill", i.e. "below the hill" in the tp way. 'wawa e monsi akesi' applies a force to the backs of the dragons". I would say 'e ike' and 'e mi', certainly the latter, since Merlin would definitely be toast.

'jan pali lawa' ('pi' needs two words) 'pali lon insa nena' 'kama lukin' 'pali lon insa kiwen' (maybe 'tawa' for 'lon' in both cases) 'lukin e akesi kon' ditto for the new stone. 'akesi kon ni li suli pi akesi kon sin' But this is the new one and what are you saying about its size. MY best guess is that it is the same size 'suli sama akesi kon nanpa wan' I'm not sure how to say it is bigger or smaller.

Probably 'lukin e sama' "see one another" rather than "see something new". I like 'tenpo e tenpo suno tu wan' for "took three days"; it may be the first use of this idiom, which seems inherently right -- and might have smoothed some earlier passages. e.g., pali li tenpo e tenpo suli' "construction took a long time". (note, in additive numerals, the biggest always comes first, so not 'wan tu') maybe 'kipisi e sike wawa lon akesi' "cut a mighty circle in the dragon", but 'kipisi' might also do for the cut ("slice") and 'tan' for how it affected the dragon. 'kama kon seli' since 'kama' means "become" but is a modal, so takes the compliment immediately, not as a direct object. On the other hand, 'lukin does take a direct object , so 'lukin e ona'

"spoke wisely/knowingly about this battle" 'toki sona e ijo pi utala ni'. as usual about names: Ute Pentakon. 'tu wan'

'monsuta' is a tricky word in that its usage is not clear. As a noun it means something to be feared, but as a verb it seems to be used both for "frighten" and "be afraid of" and I don't know which is dominant. You go with the latter and so so will I. I don't think I have seen 'poki' as a verb before, except to mean "is a box". I think the notion of sealing oneself (or something else) away is clearly there, but might be hard to recover at first (but context helps a lot). To be on the safe side, I might have used 'poki e sama' "boxed himself in". 'utala seli' is compact and nice. no 'e' with 'kama' (twice). I might have said that Vortigern kama moli, since this is sort of a sequence of events, but that is frill. 'Piten'

jan_endy
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:07 am
Location: ma Kanse

Re: akesi kon tu

Postby jan_endy » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:38 am

Dear jan Kipo,
thanks for your help which is very appreciated.

Voltikeln. no v in tp, no consonant clusters in tp, no ti in tp.

It is hard to drop so much letter. I choose Monteken...

"He evilly had a head surface of dead heads" I don't get "head surface". I suppose you have dead rulers, so "ruler table"? (but that is Arthur seeping into my thinking)?

I wanted to say :
He stole the throne of the dead king.
Is it more understandable if I add "kama" before "jo" and "jan" before "lawa moli"? I dont see any other way to say Throne...
ona li kama jo ike e supa lawa pi jan lawa moli

'sinpin lili li pakala li kama e kiwen lili' ? maybe, without 'e', "a little wall/ a few walls broke and became little stones". with 'e' I don't get it.

I wanted to express the transformation :
As soon as some feet of wall have been constructed, they broke and became ruins.
Perhaps I can use "la" like :
sinpin li lili la ni li pakala li kama e kiwen lili mute
I dont see why I could elide the "e" because ruins is the object of become. Can you explain that to me?

"Construction took a long time".

My idea was more to express "multiple times" than "long times".
What about this :
tenpo mute la sinpin li pali. taso tenpo ali la sinpin li pakala.
Is is more understandable?

sinpin li sewi ken kepeken telo loje pi jan lili. jan lili ni li luka tu li jo ala e mama mije.' This says "The wall is possibly high using children's blood. These children are a group of seven and fatherless"

In the original story, the idea was to mix the cement with the blood of a seven years old boy without a father.
I presume we can use ko tomo for cement but I can figure out a way for expressing the mix.

'jan utala lawa', 'pi' needs two words after it.

If I use "jan utala lawa" I have the feeling to talk about a war chief, not the soldier of the king. Perhaps again I should use jan :
jan utala pi jan lawa

'akesi kon ni li suli pi akesi kon sin' But this is the new one and what are you saying about its size. MY best guess is that it is the same size 'suli sama akesi kon nanpa wan' I'm not sure how to say it is bigger or smaller.

The second is bigger, that I want to express. perhaps I can use "the first" like :
akesi kon ni li loje li suli pi akesi nanpa wan.

maybe 'kipisi e sike wawa lon akesi' "cut a mighty circle in the dragon", but 'kipisi' might also do for the cut ("slice") and 'tan' for how it affected the dragon.

I used "sike wawa" for the heart of the dragon. perhaps I should use pilin?
akesi kon loje li kipisi e pilin pi akesi kon walo

I would like also to talk about Uther Pendragon. As you probably know, Pendragon means something like "Dragon's head" or "Dragon's master".
Is it possible to say something like "jan Utel li lawa pi akesi kon mute"
as a determinative like in Homere with the name of gods or heroes?

'monsuta' is a tricky word in that its usage is not clear. As a noun it means something to be feared, but as a verb it seems to be used both for "frighten" and "be afraid of" and I don't know which is dominant. You go with the latter and so so will I.

I finally choose "pilin ike tan" which is probably more understandable but unfortunately less expressive.

Again, thanks a lot for your help.
I would be happy to give my text to anybody is learning toki pona. Do you know if it exists a dedicated place on the web for toki pona texts?
Regards
jan Enki

janKipo
Posts: 2928
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: akesi kon tu

Postby janKipo » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:06 pm

[quote="jan_endy"
"He evilly had a head surface of dead heads" I don't get "head surface". I suppose you have dead rulers, so "ruler table"? (but that is Arthur seeping into my thinking)?

I wanted to say :
He stole the throne of the dead king.
Is it more understandable if I add "kama" before "jo" and "jan" before "lawa moli"? I dont see any other way to say Throne...
ona li kama jo ike e supa lawa pi jan lawa moli [/quote]

"seat, chair" is 'supa monsi' to distinguish from 'supa lape' and 'supa tomo' and 'supa moku'("bed" and "floor" and "table") when some context would help (which is pretty much always at the beginning of a discussion)

'sinpin lili li pakala li kama e kiwen lili' ? maybe, without 'e', "a little wall/ a few walls broke and became little stones". with 'e' I don't get it.

I wanted to express the transformation :
As soon as some feet of wall have been constructed, they broke and became ruins.
Perhaps I can use "la" like :
sinpin li lili la ni li pakala li kama e kiwen lili mute
I dont see why I could elide the "e" because ruins is the object of become. Can you explain that to me?


'kama' is a modal that takes a predicate complement and means "become, come to" So, if the wall becomes gravel that is 'sitelen li kama kiwen lili', if the stress is on the process of getting something, rather than on on state of having it, then use 'kama jo' and so on. The direcxt object of ;kama;, on the rare occasion when it has one, is something the subject causes to change 'mi kama akesi e ona' "I turned him into a toad".
The 'la' structure is clearer, maybe with a 'tenpo mute la' in front to show it happened repeatedly.

"Construction took a long time".

My idea was more to express "multiple times" than "long times".
What about this :
tenpo mute la sinpin li pali. taso tenpo ali la sinpin li pakala.
Is is more understandable?


The problem here is that 'mute' means both "much" and "many". We try to use 'suli; for long intervals, but that doesn't always stick. Well, and 'kama e tenpo mute' means "made much time/ several times pass" or something like.

sinpin li sewi ken kepeken telo loje pi jan lili. jan lili ni li luka tu li jo ala e mama mije.' This says "The wall is possibly high using children's blood. These children are a group of seven and fatherless"

In the original story, the idea was to mix the cement with the blood of a seven years old boy without a father.
I presume we can use ko tomo for cement but I can figure out a way for expressing the mix.

sina kepeken ko tomo pi kepeken telo loje pi jan ni la sitelen li ken kama sewi. jan ni jo ala e mama mije li sike e suno lon tenpo luka tu (taso). Or so.

'jan utala lawa', 'pi' needs two words after it.

If I use "jan utala lawa" I have the feeling to talk about a war chief, not the soldier of the king. Perhaps again I should use jan :
jan utala pi jan lawa


pona

'akesi kon ni li suli pi akesi kon sin' But this is the new one and what are you saying about its size. MY best guess is that it is the same size 'suli sama akesi kon nanpa wan' I'm not sure how to say it is bigger or smaller.

The second is bigger, that I want to express. perhaps I can use "the first" like :
akesi kon ni li loje li suli pi akesi nanpa wan.


As I said, comparisons are hard in tp. The only way officially available is to put 'lili' on the smaller and 'mute' on the larger in two sentences. I tend to cheat and put 'ali' on the biggest *but I am not sure that is fair with simple comparatives -- but let's suppose it is). So the official line has the first dragon as 'akesi pi suli lili; or some such and the second as 'akesi pi suli mute'. The dubious revision would make the second 'akesi pi suli ali'. It is unfortunate that 'suli (-i) X' doesn't mean "bigger than X" but it doesn't.

maybe 'kipisi e sike wawa lon akesi' "cut a mighty circle in the dragon", but 'kipisi' might also do for the cut ("slice") and 'tan' for how it affected the dragon.

I used "sike wawa" for the heart of the dragon. perhaps I should use pilin?
akesi kon loje li kipisi e pilin pi akesi kon walo


'pilin' for "heart" seems to be more about emotions than about vital organs. The organs are generally 'insa', but the specific heart gets complicated terms like 'ilo pi tawa pi telo loje', which seems overly precise and scientific. I suspect 'insa' is enough, even if it comes out as "guts".

I would like also to talk about Uther Pendragon. As you probably know, Pendragon means something like "Dragon's head" or "Dragon's master".
Is it possible to say something like "jan Utel li lawa pi akesi kon mute"
as a determinative like in Homere with the name of gods or heroes?


I wish I knew how to do this and the related appositive uses, but I don't. Your version is a statement "Uther is the master of many dragons" the best (in some sense) I have come up with is 'jan Ute pi sama lawa pi akesi kon mute'

'monsuta' is a tricky word in that its usage is not clear. As a noun it means something to be feared, but as a verb it seems to be used both for "frighten" and "be afraid of" and I don't know which is dominant. You go with the latter and so so will I.

I finally choose "pilin ike tan" which is probably more understandable but unfortunately less expressive.


That is unfortunately often what we end up doing.

Again, thanks a lot for your help.
I would be happy to give my text to anybody is learning toki pona. Do you know if it exists a dedicated place on the web for toki pona texts?


There is not now but it looks like someone is working on it. I have my own stash and so does Mato and perhaps other people, Hopwfully we can get them all together in one place and edit and organize them as a teaching aid and a place to go for examples as well as pleasure. Your piece here (and future ones, I'm sure) will be welcome members.
Last edited by janKipo on Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jan_endy
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:07 am
Location: ma Kanse

Re: akesi kon tu

Postby jan_endy » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:58 am

toki
jan Kipo li pana e sona pona ona tawa mi. pona.
ni li nimi mute kin pi akesi kon tu.
jan Enki

akesi kon tu

tenpo pini mute la jan Monteken li lawa pi ma Piten. ona li ike mute. ona li kama jo ike e supa monsi lawa pi jan lawa moli.ona li moli e mije lili pi jan lawa moli. taso mije lili sin li moli ala li tawa weka. Jan Monteken li pilin ike tan mije lili ni. ona li wile pali e tomo sewi. tomo ni li suli mute li sewi mute. jan ala li ken utala e tomo ni.

pali li kama lon nena suli. taso sinpin li lili la ni li pakala li kama kiwen lili mute. tenpo mute la sinpin li pali. taso tenpo ali la sinpin li pakala.

jan sona li toki e ni tawa jan Monteken:
"sinpin kepeken ko tomo pi telo loje pi jan lili li ken kama sewi. jan lili ni li sike e suno tenpo luka tu. jan lili ni li jo ala e mama mije."

jan utala pi jan lawa li weka li jo wile e jan lili ni. utala li tawa e ma tomo. jan Melin li kama tawa ona li toki e ni:
"sina wile e mi. mi luka tu. mi jo ala e mama mije."
utala li kute e toki nasa. taso utala li pana e jan lili tawa jan lawa.

Jan Melin li toki e ni: "jan lawa o, mi toki e ijo pi tomo seli pakala. akesi ko
n tu li lape lon anpa nena. sinpin li wawa e monsi akesi. akesi li tawa sike li
pakala e tomo seli. mi toki e ike la sina seli e mi."

jan pali pi jan lawa li pali lon insa nena. ona li kama lukin e kiwen suli tu. ona li pali lon insa kiwen li lukin e akesi kon. akesi kon ni li walo li suli li tawa kon li mu ike. jan pali li pali lon insa kiwen sin li lukin e akesi kon sin. akesi kon ni li loje li suli mute mute.

akesi kon tu li lukin e sama. ona li utala li kipisi li seli. utala li tenpo e tenpo suno tu wan. akesi kon loje li kipisi e insa pi akesi kon walo. akesi kon walo li moli li tawa anpa li kama kon seli. akesi kon loje li sewi. jan ala li lukin e ona.

jan Monteken toki e ni tawa jan Melin :
"sina toki sona e ijo pi utala ni."
jan Melin li toki e ni:
"akesi kon walo li sina. akesi kon loje li jan Uten li mije lili pi law
a moli. tenpo suno tu wan la jan Uten li kama li moli e sina."

jan Monteken li pilin ike tan ni. ona li poki e sama lon tomo ona. taso jan Uten li kama li utala seli e tomo. jan Monteken li kama moli. jan Uten li kama jan lawa pi ma Piten. jan Melin li kama jan sona pi jan Uten.

janKipo
Posts: 2928
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: akesi kon tu

Postby janKipo » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:46 pm

jan_endy wrote: taso sinpin li lili la ni li pakala li kama kiwen lili mute. tenpo mute la sinpin li pali. taso tenpo ali la sinpin li pakala.


Fine to here, then some minor problems. 'ona' instead of 'ni' since the word antecedent, 'sinpin'. is right there and 'ni' tends to be read as the sentence not the part of it. The wall doesn't make/build, it is built, so not 'sinpin li pali' but 'jan li pali e sinpin' (you just can't do passives in tp).

"sinpin PI kepeken ko tomo pi telo loje pi jan lili li ken kama sewi. jan lili ni li sike e suno LON tenpo luka tu. jan lili ni li jo ala e mama mije."


jan utala pi jan lawa li weka li jo wile e jan lili ni. JAN utala li tawa e ma tomo. jan Melin li kama tawa ona li toki e ni:
"sina wile e mi. mi SIKE E SUNO LON TENPO luka tu. mi jo ala e mama mije."
utala li kute e toki nasa. taso JAN utala li pana e jan lili tawa jan lawa.


I would have said 'kama weka' since this all seems to be moving rather than stative ("went away', rather than 'was distant") 'wile jo' (or 'alasa') not "willingily possessed" but "wanted to have" or "looked for". Second sentence could have been joined with the first, since same subject, just a different predicate. An argument can be made that the preposition with 'kama' should be 'lon', but that is up in the air.

jan Melin li toki e ni: "jan lawa o, mi toki e ijo pi tomo seli pakala. akesi ko
n tu li lape lon anpa nena. sinpin li wawa e monsi akesi. akesi li tawa sike li
pakala e tomo seli. mi toki e ike la sina seli e mi."


I assume 'suli' for 'seli'. 'sike' itself may be enough, but that is not clear.

jan pali pi jan lawa li pali lon insa nena. ona li kama lukin e kiwen suli tu. ona li pali lon insa kiwen li lukin e akesi kon. akesi kon ni li walo li suli li tawa kon li mu ike. jan pali li pali lon insa kiwen sin li lukin e akesi kon sin. akesi kon ni li loje li suli mute mute.


Strictly 'suli pi mute mute' but I fear that this has become too common to keep complaining about.

akesi kon tu li lukin e sama. ona li utala li kipisi li seli. utala li tenpo e tenpo suno tu wan. akesi kon loje li kipisi e insa pi akesi kon walo. akesi kon walo li moli li tawa anpa li kama kon seli. akesi kon loje li sewi. jan ala li lukin e ona.


I guess I like 'kama' since I would have said 'kama moli' as part of the flow of activity.
The rest goes smoothly. Very nice job!

jan_endy
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:07 am
Location: ma Kanse

Re: akesi kon tu

Postby jan_endy » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:07 am

mi SIKE E SUNO LON TENPO luka tu


I suppose this means "I circled the sun seven times". Why use "lon" there? Why not "pi"?

In a more compact way, I think we could say :
mi sike e suno luka tu -> I circled seven suns
As we are not in an inter-galactic story, we can assume it is the same sun that we circled multiple times.
I think that in this context, it is more tokiponistic (as in the 'simple' semantic of 'pona')

akesi kon ni li loje li suli mute mute.
Strictly 'suli pi mute mute' but I fear that this has become too common to keep complaining about.


"suli mute mute" is there for "very very big" as a nominal group. if we say
akesi kon li suli pi mute mute
to me, it means "the dragon is big of a lot of a lot"
Where am I wrong?

janKipo
Posts: 2928
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: akesi kon tu

Postby janKipo » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:13 am

jan_endy wrote:
mi SIKE E SUNO LON TENPO luka tu


I suppose this means "I circled the sun seven times". Why use "lon" there? Why not "pi"?

In a more compact way, I think we could say :
mi sike e suno luka tu -> I circled seven suns
As we are not in an inter-galactic story, we can assume it is the same sun that we circled multiple times.
I think that in this context, it is more tokiponistic (as in the 'simple' semantic of 'pona')


I'm not too happy with 'lon' either, but I don't see 'pi' as an alternative. It would make 'tenpo luka tu' modify 'suno', whereas the aim is to make it modify 'sike (e suno)'. So, maybe 'sike pi tenpo luka tu e suno' would work, though the construction is novel (but more rational than 'lon'). Circling seven suns is also not very natural, again because it is the circlings, not the sun that adds up to seven. I think that your earlier innovation offers the best solution: 'mi tenpo e sike suno luka tu' "I have lasted seven years"

akesi kon ni li loje li suli mute mute.
Strictly 'suli pi mute mute' but I fear that this has become too common to keep complaining about.


"suli mute mute" is there for "very very big" as a nominal group. if we say
akesi kon li suli pi mute mute
to me, it means "the dragon is big of a lot of a lot"
Where am I wrong?


tp modifier strings group left, that is each new (right) modifier modifies everything to its left. So, in 'suli mute mute' the second 'mute' modifies 'suli mute' meaning, thus, something like "many very big things" if it is a noun string, but hard to interpret systematically otherwise. To be sure, for the special case of 'mute' (and probably 'lili' though I can't think of an example), the difference between "very (very big)" and "(very very) big" is not very clear (except for removing a possible ambiguity between 'very' and "many"), with almost any other words the difference is sharp. Consider even just 'soweli loje mute' with the "very. extreme" reading of 'mute': "an extreme among red animals" -- in what way extreme not specified -- versus 'soweli pi loje mute' "a very red animal" which clearly puts the extremeness on in the color (where it might have been in the first case, but need not have been). If the second element is other than 'mute' or 'lil', the case is even clearer "kasi loje laso" is a red plant that is blue (!), while 'kasi pi loje laso' is is bluish-red plant. So you probably went wrong in reading 'pi' as "of" and then bringing some associations of the English "of" to bear on the tp 'pi'. In fact, 'pi' merely groups the following words (this is why there must be at least two words after it) into a unit within the larger left grouping pattern, Within that unit, the grouping continues to be left but the beginning of the modified is at the 'pi'. So, in 'suli pi mute mute' the second 'mute' modifies only the first one and then that whole modifies 'suli' -- in your terms, an extreme of an extreme of large. Which is probably what you meant to say.


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