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Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
janKipo
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: o

Postby janKipo » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:48 pm

I didn't say it wouldn't work (though I don't think it will). only that it is breaking new ground. And, I don't think we want to break that ground, for I can see what confusions would arise if 'li' and 'e' and 'la' were content words (though I am not sure what they might be used to mean). The suggetion that 'en' might be used to mean "add on' or 'anu' to mean "choose" were already rejected once as promoting confusion and they are much less central (and we still don't have a good expression for adding). It may be that using 'o' as a verb doesn't create problems, but it opens the way (unstoppably) to use it as a noun and that gives 'o jan li pakala e utala' (Crimea 1858 or so) "A man's orders ruined the battle" or "May somebody ruin the battle" and so on. But we could use a word for "order" (several, indeed).

jan Nowo
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:31 am

Re: o

Postby jan Nowo » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:34 am

Let us not forget that any language contains sentences that are ambiguous and only usage will tell. I mean,
no one should have complete authority over language. Luckily, you do not need any democracy as far as usage
is concerned, it is inherent here. Unless my contribution to this discussion is deleted, as it often happens in other fora, and people do not get a chance to learn about the possibity. Still, somene else might have this idea.

Also, tp is very ambiguous as it is, so why bother if something could be a bit unclear for someone.

Other special words you mention (li, pi etc.) are not so inviting to be used in other ways.

mi o e jan ali. mi kin toki pi ijo. I wish I could find a word for "suggest".

Norbert

jan Nowo
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:31 am

Re: o

Postby jan Nowo » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:30 am

Ok, I give this one up, considering you like my suggestion regarding oko;)

Still, I would like to know how to say order in the sense of command, and order goods.

I ordered a TV.

mi wile lipu e ilo pi sitelen tawa.

??

janKipo
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: o

Postby janKipo » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:41 pm

There is no expression under "order" in the online word lists, but "command" has the reasonable 'toki lawa', though with some uncertainty about what goes where as far as places go, Patterning would put the command itself as DO and the recipient with 'tawa', but at least one case has the recipient as DO. For the sense of "place an order" the obvious line is 'wile toki' "a spoken desire", but that conflicts with the use of 'wile' as a modal "want to". On the other hand, it gets the right DO, the thing ordered. The other immediate possibility, 'toki wile', makes the form of the order, rather than the thing ordered the DO in the normal course of things. I suppose the solution is just to use the right DO regardless of the form involved (though this may set bad precedents for other cases of this sort). Another case of this sort is "suggest", which, as 'toki pilin' combines expression with the tentativeness of 'pilin' "believe, think" (contrasting with 'sona' "know"). It also lacks the directive force of "suggest", which would bring 'wile' in again, I suppose. But we want handy expressions in the right direction, not definitions (we aren't Lojban, after all, thank God). (This is actually already on the charts, from 2007).


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