Double objects

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
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janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Double objects

Post by janKipo »

jan lawa li ken tomo e tomo e mi
The gubmint can build houses and me.
What a strange notion; I'm already built, if that is what I am. So, something else must be going on. And indeed there is:
'tomo e tomo' is the verb phrase that goes with modal 'ken' all right, but this is the transitive 'ken' "permit, enable" and its direct object is the person enabled to do what is mentioned. That is, this means "The gubmint permits me to build a house" or some such. It would be clearer -- but less fun -- to say 'jan lawa ken ni e mi. mi tomo e tomo' Any suggestions for better ways to say this?
Kuti
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: Double objects

Post by Kuti »

jan lawa li pana e ken tawa mi. mi ken pali e tomo.
janKipo
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Double objects

Post by janKipo »

pona. taso nimi 'tomo e tomo' li pona tawa mi. kin la nimi 'tan ni la' pi lon sinpin pi kulupu nanpa tu li pona.
Kuti
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: Double objects

Post by Kuti »

lon.
taso 'mi tomo e tomo' li suli. 'mi tomo' li lili
'mi pali e tomo' li pona tawa sona e toki sina.

jan li toki e 'mi tomo (e tomo)' tawa mi la, mi sona ala e ni : ona li toki e seme li pali e seme?
janMato
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Re: Double objects

Post by janMato »

This would depend on what the spec says (and the spec says nothing AFAIK)

If I were to guess that two objects work like English, it would be, "The government can build me a house."

It looks like this is a novel way to merge two sentences

(jan lawa li ken tomo e tomo) e mi
(jan lawa li ken) tomo e tomo (e mi)

S1 (jan lawa li ken tomo e tomo) - The government can build a house.
S2 (jan lawa li ken) (e mi) - The government enables me.

I think the English makes more sense if it were "The government can let me build a house" I can't enable HUD to build me a house, unless maybe I was a Senator and wanted to enable HUD to opt to provide free housing to Senators, a rather strange scenario.

mi ken moku e kili e sina kin. from mi ken moku e kili, & mi ken e sina kin.
I can eat fruit and I can let you too.
janKipo
Posts: 3064
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Double objects

Post by janKipo »

I don't think it can mean "The government can build me a house" since the "for me" is not in there anywhere to begin with. The government can give me permission to do something or it can do something for me, but those are two different patterns. jan lawa li ken tomo e tomo tawa mi, not e mi. (or of course, can build my car, but ...).
Similarly, my eating the fruit isn't in the mix once the transitivity of 'ken' is established. The 'kin' doesn't help, since it is more naturally about me as an addition to the fruit, not the eaters.

'tomo e tomo' is a tautology, of course, but no more obscure than 'tomo' is generally: house, room, vehicle, city, ...
pona e toki sina tawa sona?
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