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toki kepeken nimi seme ? - Toki Pona Forums

toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
Jan KoAla
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toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Postby Jan KoAla » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:40 am

mi pilin e ni: jan ali li toki e nasin toki kepeken nasin ante.

nimi la:

toki kepeken toki pona
toki e toki pona

taso tenpo ala la mi lukin e ni: toki ilo toki pona.

nasin ni li pona ala pona? mi wile toki e ni: nimi ilo li pona lon ni?

mi kepeken e nimi kepeken lon ni. taso mi wile sona e pilin sina. sina mute li jo e pilin seme tawa ni?

janMato
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Re: toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Postby janMato » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:22 am


Jan KoAla
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Re: toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Postby Jan KoAla » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:29 am

mi pana e pona tawa sina tan ni: sina pona e sona tawa mi.

mi wile toki e ni:

nimi ilo li nimi ilo (preposition :P ) ala la jan li ken kepeken nimi ilo tawa toki kepeken nasin seme?

jan li ken ala ken toki ilo e toki? (ona li nasa mute tawa mi. taso mi wile sona e nasin.)

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Re: toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Postby janKipo » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:56 am

wile mi li kama la toki pona li jo e nimi 'ilo' taso. taso ona li jo e nimi 'kepeken' kin. tu ni li pali e sama. taso nimi 'kepeken' taso li nimi pi lon sinpin. sina ken ala kepeke e nimi 'ilo' tawa nimi pi lon sinpin. ike a!
poka la sina wile toki e nimi '...kepeken E nimi ilo tawa ...'

Jan KoAla
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Re: toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Postby Jan KoAla » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:59 am

mi pana e pona tawa sina tan ni: sina pana e sona tawa mi!

mi kama sona e nasin pi nimi ni. o pana e pona mute!

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Re: toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Postby janMato » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:17 pm

Um, I get the vague gist about what your asking. I think tp is not quite up to discussing it's own syntax, so I'll keep answering in English.

kepeken - instrumental. mi moli e jan ike kepeken palisa pi kiwen suno. I killed the enemy with a sword.
poka - definitely collaboration, maybe geographic position without lon.
mi moli e jan ike poka jan pona mi. I, in collaboration with my friend, killed the enemy.
? mi moli e jan ike poka jan pona mi. I killed the enemy (that happened to be standing next to my friend).

lon - best to use this just for geographic location and not metaphorical uses since the metaphors aren't part of the language's specification.
lon sike, lon anpa, lon sewi = physically around, under, above.
lon poka - I don't know if this is a better way to say, 'physically next to" poka is a preposition officially so it can stand alone and people do sometimes use it for physically next to, but I feel like it would be more regular to say "lon poka" (or maybe it would be more regular to just turn sike, anpa, sewi into spatial prepositions already)

sama - works the same as predicative sentences-
waso li waso pi tawa noka. The bird is an ostrich.
vs
waso li sama waso pi tawa noka. The bird is similar to an ostrich.

tawa - purpose and physical motion towards, dative.

tan - explanatory cause of
And for some reason, most people front this.
tan jan lawa la mi pakala ala e lawa. Because of the king, I don't break the laws.
mi pakala ala e lawa tan jan lawa. Seem valid and seems like the same thing, but everyone seems to want to front the prepositional phrase.

e- accusative, Direct object.

Advance toki pona
Unmarked complements. Starting with "jan li kama sona" or "jan li tawa tomo" as a model, you could argue that these are verbs without marked complements, or "jan li toki sona" I try to avoid these unless I feel like pressing the boundaries of the language because there just isn't a lot of support in the canon and what unmarked complements we have could be analyzed in other ways- adverbs, modal + verb, etc.

Applicatives. Some languages will promote an oblique (e.g dative to accusative) to show that the oblique thing is more topically important.

The syntax of toki pona is rigorously defined. How to translate the syntax into meaning isn't so rigorously defined, that's why I'm calling those two scenarios "advanced"

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Re: toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Postby janKipo » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:55 pm

propinquity is 'lon poka' as a preposition, though apparently just 'poka' as a verb (probably a generalization from 'weka'). This needs some work.
I suspect that the 'tan jan lawa la' construction is somehow a generalization (not particularly correct, for a number of reasons) from 'tan ni la' We don't generally have PP in 'la' phrases, since they have a place already assigned them; the exception for 'tan ni' is largely rhetorical: getting the 'ni' as close to what it refers to as possible.
Modals take unmarked VP as complements (ken, wile, pini, open, awen, kama). Prepositions (tawa, lon, tan, sama) take NP complements, even when verbs or nouns. 'kepeken' needs an 'e' when used as a verb; I haven't seen a case with 'poka' used as a verb in the sense "accompanying", so I don't have any notion how that goes. Some oter words (especially 'pilin') have come to have adjective complements, quite distinct from their identical adverbial modifiers. This is a calque, probably, but seems to be rather deeply embedded.

Jan KoAla
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Re: toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Postby Jan KoAla » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:59 pm

Thank you all again for the information.

I want a question in Enlgish since this thread is becoming so useful for many of the things that were unclear to me before.

How should we say, "Thinking about X" or "Talking about X"?

janSilipu
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Re: toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Postby janSilipu » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:22 pm

Mato gave a list somewhere around here lately. I personally seem to stick to 'toki/pilin e ijo pi ...'. Some have suggested using 'sike' as in English, but that hasn't caught on. Some try hooking the topic directly on the verb 'toki pi ...,', but that leads t ambiguity with adverbs. Most go for just 'toki e ...' but tpics are rarely things you say or speak. If you have creative suggestions, they are welcome in the stew.

janMato
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Re: toki kepeken nimi seme ?

Postby janMato » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:23 pm

The discussions on "talking about" are all over the place on the forum. I tried to search, but couldn't find a tidy place were everything has been summarized. I should write one and put it on my blog. Soon!

mi toki lon sike soweli = calque of english.
mi toki soweli. (Adverbial sense? oblique incorporation into verb phrase? Too poorly define in the grammar)
* mi toki pi soweli. (I just need a semantically bleached (meaninless) separator, but this isn't legal.)
mi toki pi soweli mute. (Well, needs another word)
mi toki e soweli. (the e of last resort!)
mi toki pu soweli. (use that pu for something!)
mi toki tawa soweli. (add another meaning to tawa!)


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