How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

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janMato
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How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

Post by janMato »

This article had a one line mention of toki pona and it sounded mostly wrong.
Toki Pona, which "uses only positive words to promote positive thinking.""
So what is the real split between positive, negative and neutral words?

I count 11 positive/ 15 negative (17 counting some of the most recent new/potentially new words) The remainder of the words are not especially postive or negative.

My data:
a
akesi - /unpleasant animals
ala -
alasa
ale +
ali +
anpa -
ante
anu
awen
e
en
esun
ijo
ike -
ilo
insa
jaki -
jan
jelo
jo
kala
kalama
kama
kasi
ken
kepeken
kipisi
kili
kin
kiwen
ko
kon
kule
kute
kulupu
la
lape
laso
lawa
len
lete - (?)
li
lili
linja
lipu
loje
lon
luka
lukin
lupa
ma
mama
mani
meli
mi
mije
moku
moli -
monsi - /?
mu
mun
musi
mute
namako +/- ?? unnecessary vs spice
nanpa
nasa -
nasin
nena
ni
nimi
noka
o
oko
olin +
ona
open +/?
pakala -
pali
palisa
pan
pana
pata
pi
pilin
pimeja -/?
pini -/?
pipi
poka
poki
pona +
sama
seme
seli
selo
sewi +
sike
sijelo
sin + (no word for old)
sina
sinpin
sitelen
sona
soweli + / pleasant animals
suli
suno
supa
suwi +
tan
taso
tawa
telo
tenpo
toki
tomo
tu
unpa +/- unclear if this is the cuss word or positive or neutral
uta
utala -
walo
wan
waso
weka
wawa
wile
------
monsuta -
apeja -- very negative
jan-ante
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Re: How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

Post by jan-ante »

another quotation
So it's easy to understand why thousands of people over hundreds of years have tried to create a better language from scratch. Okrent's book is a fascinating look at some of these attempts, from the well-known (Esperanto) to the obscure (Toki Pona, which "uses only positive words . . . to promote positive thinking.")
feel the difference
it seem not wise to count the words if you have only the broken phrase taken out of context
janKipo
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Re: How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

Post by janKipo »

It would seem reasonable to consider word pairs, rather than words alone, since then the notion of positive and negative come into sharper focus. So, for example, on the good-evil axis, tp has one positive but two negative. In another case, Mato gives 'lete' a minus, but does not give 'seli' a positive. In other cases, we find one side represented, the other not: 'moli' but no "alive". I still think the overall result will favor the negative.
As usual, I hold 'unpa'' to be neutral and not a cuss word.
janMato
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Re: How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

Post by janMato »

jan-ante wrote:another quotation
So it's easy to understand why thousands of people over hundreds of years have tried to create a better language from scratch. Okrent's book is a fascinating look at some of these attempts, from the well-known (Esperanto) to the obscure (Toki Pona, which "uses only positive words . . . to promote positive thinking.")
feel the difference
it seem not wise to count the words if you have only the broken phrase taken out of context
You added "to promote positive thinking", but it still says "uses only positive words". My observation isn't exactly new, lots of people have said as much before that toki pona's root vocabulary is slanted to the thematically (moli, ike, jaki) and connotatively (pakala, namako) negative direction. If toki pona lived up the common claim, then we'd expect one to have to say "not alive", "not clean", "not confident" to express dead, dirty, or fear.

Anyhow, if toki pona has any effect on positive or negative thinking, it's probably effected through forcing people to recast their thoughts into something so alien to their ordinary speech, that they are less likely to say negative things out of mere habit.
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Re: How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

Post by janMato »

janKipo wrote:It would seem reasonable to consider word pairs, rather than words alone, since then the notion of positive and negative come into sharper focus. So, for example, on the good-evil axis, tp has one positive but two negative. In another case, Mato gives 'lete' a minus, but does not give 'seli' a positive. In other cases, we find one side represented, the other not: 'moli' but no "alive". I still think the overall result will favor the negative.
Method by counting how many words pairs have both, or only one on a potentially positive negative continuuum.
* Some words just don't want to fall on a nice good-bad continuum.
* Colors, animals, body parts usually don't have an obvious antonym
* Good words listed first, bad second
* Some of these depend on culture, including gender, family and prepositions

I haven't finished filling in the blanks, but so far, there are more missing items on the negative side than on the positive side.

Positive -> Negative
soweli -> akesi (pleasant vs unpleasant animals)
ale/ali, lon -> ala (exist, doesn't exist)
alasa -> weka (find vs lose)
sewi -> anpa (up/down)
sama-> ante (same/different)
awen -> weka (keep, lose)
ijo -> ala? (something, nothing)
ike -> pona
insa -> Missing outside
jaki -> pona
jo -> missing lack
kalama -> missing quiet
kama - tawa
kepeken -> missing neglect
kipisi -> wan
kin -> missing "hardly"
kiwen -> ko/kon ?
kule -> pimeja/walo ?
kute -> missing ignore/inaudible
missing awake -> lape
lawa -> noka
seli -> lete
suli-> lili
palisa -> linja (wavy, straight)
lipu -> nena (flat, bumpy)
mama -> missing stranger/unrelated, depending on what you think the default is, we're missing father
mani -> missing worthless/poor
meli <->mije (ordering or lack of it, depends on culture)
missing inedible, poison? -> moku
missing alive -> moli
mute ->lili
namako -> missing required
nanpa -> missing infinite (not clear which of these would be "positive")
missing sane/ordinary - > nasa
nasin -> missing chaos
oko -> missing invisible
olin -> missing hate
pona -> pakala (fix, break)
musi -> pali (work, play)
pana -> jo (Well, I guess it depends on what one is giving)
pilin -> missing insentiate
walo -> pimeja (canonical reference to the "dark teenage poetry", so dark is negative)
open -> pini (finish, start)
missing near -> poka (far)
selo ->lete
sin -> missing old
sinpin ->monsi (front, back)
sona -> missing stupid
suno -> pimeja
supa -> nena?
suwi -> missing sour/bitter
tan -> tawa (to/from)
telo -> missing "dry"
toki-> missing "mute" as in can't talk.
open -> tomo (open, enclosed)?
unpa -> missing celebate, what negative and positive depends on culture
missing peace -> utala
wan -> tu (unite, split)
wawa -> missing weak.
wile -> missing unwanted/averse to

Not clear what sort of continuum these fall on
ma -> mun/telo/suno?
esun -> means both buy and sell.
anu -> en (?)
kulupu ->?
laso->?
len->?
lukin ->?
kasi ->?
ken ->?
kili ->?
luka ->?
mu ->?
mun -> ma?
waso - ?
sitelen -> ?
nimi ->?
noka ->?
pan ->?
pipi ->?
tenpo-> timeless?
ilo -> (unusable?)
jan -> (inhumane?)
kala -> ?
lupa ->(unpunctured?)
uta -> ?
poki -> (unboxed?)
sike -> (oval? square?)
sijelo -> (disembodied?)
jelo, laso, loje -- No clear meaning for the oposite of a color.
janKipo
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Re: How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

Post by janKipo »

'poka' is "near", 'weka' is "far"
Opposites for colors come off the wheel: laso - jelo, loje ? Actually, this doesn't work too well for tp, since the colors slide around the wheel a lot.
Some of the others are suspect. Did I miss tu-wan?
jan-ante
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Re: How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

Post by jan-ante »

janMato wrote:
You added "to promote positive thinking", but it still says "uses only positive words".
i mean we dont know the context and the quotation has "..." inside.
what do the author mean under positive thinking we dont know. but this is the positive thinking from sonja's point of view:
Take for example the concept of a "bad friend". The Toki Pona word for friend is jan pona, or literally "good person". You quickly realize that a bad friend is a contradiction in itself. If this person is truly bad to you, perhaps it is time to help him come back to a positive and constructive life path, or maybe it is time to let go of this negative person in your life.
Honesty
A classic example of this can be seen when translating to plain English the doublespeak that large organizations use to manipulate and dehumanize people:
"downsizing" mass firing of employees
"collateral damage" killing of civilians
"pre-emptive war" invasion of a foreign country
Toki Pona eliminates this excess jargon or fluff and instead points to the centre and nature of things. It can become a sort of "yoga for the mind".
taking this into account is see no reason to classify the words in your manner. moreover the positive/negative meaning depends on cutrue and contry. for you (and probably other americans) open is positive (may be due to the "open society") but for me it is neutral or even slightly negative (may be due to the "open society").
janMato
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Re: How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

Post by janMato »

Here is the full quote:
Toki Pona, a language of simple syllables that uses only positive words, is intended to promote positive thinking, to be “fun and cute … one could almost imagine a race of little cartoon creatures speaking in Toki Pona.”
https://kindle.amazon.com/post/1M1FVYEISU3MI
The ... here is in the original in the book. The sentences before and after are listing other conlangs. In any case, this is a typical reference to toki pona, a single liner by someone with only the shallowest exposure to the language, so they tend to get the facts wrong. I think Okrent was in turn quoting either Damien Yerik or jan Sonja.

Re: effectiveness of using antonyms to count what's positive and classifying in the first place
I agree, this isn't physics and the intersection of toki pona and culture is still an unsettled question. I'm inclined to believe that people are using toki pona with their own culture and toki pona mostly doesn't have a culture of it's own, con or otherwise, at least not any more than a cruise ship with tourists from around the world could be said to have their own "culture."
jan-ante
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Re: How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

Post by jan-ante »

janMato wrote:Here is the full quote:
Toki Pona, a language of simple syllables that uses only positive words, is intended to promote positive thinking, to be “fun and cute … one could almost imagine a race of little cartoon creatures speaking in Toki Pona.”
https://kindle.amazon.com/post/1M1FVYEISU3MI
but it referes to your remark on amazon site. you are matthew martin, right? or do i miss something?
anyway, what does the author mean under "positive words" and positive thinking"?
janMato
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Re: How many words in toki pona are positive (or negative)?

Post by janMato »

but it referes to your remark on amazon site. you are matthew martin, right? or do i miss something?
It is a quote copied out of a book I bought (I didn't write it), which is a feature of kindle ebooks. The quoted book is "In the Land of Invented Languages: Esperanto Rock Stars, Klingon Poets, Loglan Lovers, and the Mad Dreamers Who Tried to Build A Perfect Language" by Arika Okrent
anyway, what does the author mean under "positive words" and positive thinking"?
I think in both cases, all people in involved are using the plain sense of the words-- AFAIK, it isn't linguistic, philosophical or political jargon. Something is positive if it is of or pertains to something that is pleasant in some fashion, and it assumes that people are for the most part similar, else I couldn't assume things like, "I find battery acid unpleasant, therefore most people find battery acid unpleasant" And as for what deciding what *really* is "good" or "positive"--that's getting into the sort of philosophy that leads to doubting if anything is real or if anything can mean anything. In any case, not my specialty or interest. I'm content to believe that common sense exists and works well enough for amateur linguistics.
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