Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
daikus
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Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Post by daikus »

Hi! I loved the idea of Toki Pona since I came across it a couple of years ago, and I'm finally trying to get into it.

I intend in asking my girlfriend to marry me through a round-a-bout way that involves a code and engraving on a ring, so I wanted to make sure I got it right (both gramatically correct and that it makes sense)
The phrase is

póka mí täwå âli

And I'm going for
"Accompany me forever" or "Travel with me forever"

Please excuse the accent marks, I'm just trying to discourage my girlfriend from coming across it via Google.

Any thoughts/advise would be appreciated! Thanks All.
jan-ante
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Re: Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Post by jan-ante »

good idea
but you need o to mark imperative, e.g.
oOkamaDwan - unite!
miOtuEoRkamaMwan - let we both unite

NB - dont copy-paste. it has google-search preventor
daikus
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Re: Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Post by daikus »

Thanks for the information and quick reply!
So can I say,
ó póka mí täwå âli
or
Mî müté o pókå âli

I know the sentiment "Unite/Make two into one" is the traditional/straightforward way to propose, but I think the sentiment "Will you accompany/travel with me forever" is how my girlfriend and I view our relationship.

Thanks again for all of your help!
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jan Ote
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Re: Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Post by jan Ote »

'tawa ali' =~ "towards all", "for all"
'poka ali' =~ "with all"
"Forever, always, all time" is 'tenEpo aEli la...' (or 'tenEpo ale la...')
tenEpo alEi la o taEwa poEka mi = always go/travel with me
tenEpo alEi la o taEwa lEon poEka mi = always go/travel at my side
Last edited by jan Ote on Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
janMato
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Re: Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Post by janMato »

I'd use this:
daikus wrote:ali la o póka mí
And here is why:

The time has to go in the la phrase. It is a little bit aggressive to drop the tenpo, but aggressively dropping things is okay in the "simple" style of toki pona.

Sentences of the type X li PP are valid for predicates (moku li lon poki), predicates indicating motion (jan li tawa ma), and if you want to speak toki nasa, then why not extend the pattern to all the prepositions, e.g. jan li kepeken ilo, meli li poka mije, where the preposition indicates the stereotypical action that goes with such a preposition. If you don't want to talk toki nasa, then you have to add an e, e.g. jan li kepeken e ilo, meli li poka e mije. (And in case anyone is curious why bother trying to drop the e at all, well, it allows crazy things like : o poka mi e pali. Please accompany me in doing this work.-- crazy but not much crazier than mi lon kasi suli e sike kule)

So a more verbose toki nasa version would be:
daikus wrote:tenpo ali la o póka mí e olin mi
Always accompany me in our relationship.
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jan Ote
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Re: Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Post by jan Ote »

janMato wrote:I'd use this:
daikus wrote:ali la o póka mí
And here is why:

The time has to go in the la phrase. It is a little bit aggressive to drop the tenpo, but aggressively dropping things is okay in the "simple" style of toki pona.
I cannot agree that one can safely drop 'tenpo' in the 'la' phrase, because 'la' is used not only for the time. This is "a context expression" for the rest of sentence:
tenpo suno ni la Y -> "this day/today" is a context for Y clause
soweli li moku e kasi la Y -> "if/when animal eats grass" is a context for Y clause
ma Isilan la Y -> "Iceland" is a context for Y clause ("on Iceland: Y")
So:
ali la = [in/at] everything; concerning everything;
  also: "in life" (my life = all I perceive, and vice versa)
There is no way to express time without 'tenpo'.
janKipo
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Re: Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Post by janKipo »

Ote: Of course, in this case 'ali la' works even if it does not refer to time: for all life, in every situation, etc. Possibly even stronger than 'tenpo ali la' Otherwise, nice point. I'm try to get a list of everything that can happen in 'la', since I am coming up on the Ls in the dictionary.
Mato: Using the non-P prepositions as verbs that take NP complement seems to either lead to trouble or require some very fine rethinking. What would the difference be, for example, between 'ona li kepeken ilo' and 'ona li kepeken e ilo'. The first guess is that there is no difference, since both mean he uses a tool. But then compare 'ona li lon soweli', "He is at the critter" with 'ona li lon e soweli' "He places the pig (somewhere_", a causative inversion. So, the above case must be that the first is "He is using a tool" and the second is "He makes the tool useful" (repairs it?). Similarly, with 'poka', we get "He is near/with the critter" and "He brings the critter close". But the two cases are actually different, since the 'poka' cases are the actual usual readings, while the 'kepeken' case is not. Further, the new transitive reading of 'kepeken' is not obviously a useful one (but having two forms of the same reading is not obviously useful either). BTW, 'o poka mi e pali' does not mean "Accompany me to work", it means "Make me bring the work along".
As I said, a fine rethinking.
daikus
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Re: Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Post by daikus »

Thank you everyone for all your input!

I think I'm going to go with

ali lâ o póka mí

When I was first stumbling through putting together this phrase and I came across 'ali', it really struck me how in Toki Pona it could really encompass so much. When I said "Accompany me forever" I probably should have said, "Accompany me in everything." As Kipo says it is even stronger than if it were just tied to time.

Also, it makes it easier to get onto a ring using my crazy code. :D

Thanks again!
jan-ante
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Re: Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Post by jan-ante »

daikus wrote: ali lâ o póka mí
just one pint.
if о pókа mí = accompany me, then the verb is transitive and it should be o póka e, but o tawa póka mí and o lon póka mí do not need e
janKipo
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Re: Need help/confirmation on a phrase

Post by janKipo »

'o poka e mi' would mean something like "Bring me to your side" I suppose (but I haven't gotten to the ps yet). He is directing the request to her to be with him, not for her to bring him alone. So, the question is whether 'poka', as a preposition, can keeps its complement even in verb position. This expression assumes that it can; the 'kepeken' case suggests that it can not. If the latter is the rule, then 'o poka mi' means "Be my side", which, Adam and EVe to the contrary notwithstanding, is probably not exactly what is wanted. I am inclined to think that 'poka mi' means "be with me" quite properly and worry about what to do with 'kepeken' later (but I am in the middle of the ks now, so maybe not so much later).
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