o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
janKipo
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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby janKipo » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:08 pm

Mato:
"a pi c d as a whole modifies another word or phrase.
a pi b pi c d = (a (b (c d)), and imho is valid. The middle pi phrases however are followed only by one word. The tail must still be two words."
No, the first pi is followed by at least four words: the next 'pi' phrase also follows it. And so on.

In the area of controversy, I have made my position clear (I hope): the preps can modify an NP and, even when doing so, can take their complement NP, but that they then require a 'pi', for clarity (some at least) if nothing else.
not sure draining a swamp is a case of 'weka', but then I have no alternative at the moment. This says that the draining takes place in the middle of the land, wherever that may be.
the next is clearly wrong -- but I would say it was all right with 'pi' before 'lon' (open to authoritative correction; the chain of inference here is long enough to hide some gaps) not sure about duplication for repeated periodic motion or oscillatory.
Next doesn't say quite the same thing, now it's the rippling that is in the middle of the land, not the lake (although, of course, you need the lake there to ripple).
Nor the complementary comma to deal with other ambiguities.
Wrong -- the two-word rule. 'pi' is not a preposition (and preps don't have a two-word rule) so that doesn't help here. I'm afraid I don't see 'telo suli ma' as mud particularly (mo 'ko ma' or some such) That it refers to an aquifier is a better possibility. Not sure about 'kama ala' for "dries up" but seem to work once the nature of telo suli ma is established.
'ijo' isn't a placeholder particularly, though it may be handy when you can't think of the right word. In any case, the dummy isn't necessary, as the natural approach is to drop the 'pi' to achieve the same reference.
I'm not clear about the status of 'pi' as a verb. It seems tied to the notion of 'pi' as a possession marker (so not really a function word) and that seems to have died out early on. But I may be wrong about a lot of this, since there has been nothing definitive for several years.

[A quick check shows that as of a year ago, Sonja was still contemplating preps without 'pi' in NPs and even preferring preps to 'pi'. But these seem to be old notes only slightly revised in 2009, since they still have DOs in NPs and that has been pretty clearly out for ages. So, I don't know where things stand officially -- but you knew that.]
Last edited by janKipo on Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pookusarookus
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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby pookusarookus » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:05 pm

toki ale o!

This is jan andu again. I got pretty busy so its been a while, but I'm still interested in toki pona. I've got a few other things to ask all of you how to translate. If you like I can put it as a different topic I just need to know how to make a different topic. Anyway here are the phrases/words I'd like to know how to say in toki pona:

"fast"
"slow"
"work faster!"
"it is too slow"
"this is fast"
"he is fast"

Any help, as always, is appreciated.
Cheers,
jan andu

janKipo
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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby janKipo » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:05 pm

Yeah, this should probably be a new topic. Hit the new topic button at the top of the list for any of the subject on the general index (probably this one, kama sona toki). But for now:
"fast" i.e. high speed. Most people seem to use 'tawa wawa' to talk about going fast and I can't think of anything better off hand. then 'wawa' gets used for fast in other situations as well. The other suggestion (not much taken up) was that doing X fast was 'tenpo lili la ... X mute' "a lot of X in a little time" (there are some problems about 'la' phrases but this one seems OK).
"slow" then is '(pi) wawa ala' ('pi' when it's a modifier) or 'tenpo mute la ....X lili'
Comparatives in tp (now -- I expect this to change over time) are divided into two sentences. One the base case, the other the compared case. Here this amounts to 'sina pali pi wawa lili. o pali pi wawa mute.' Or so.
"too slow" means slower than desired, and the just-right anything is 'pona' English habitually takes negatives to be falling short of pona, so not hot is too cold, while too hot is just that (calling it not hot would lead to unpleasant surprises). I'm not sure what tp's habits will be, but for now I would suggest that "less than just right" is 'lili' and "more" is 'mute'. so, 'ona li tawa pi wawa lili' (Note that the command above could be just 'o pali pi wawa pona', which is probably what is meant"work at the speed I want".)
ni li tawa wawa
mije li tawa wawa.

pookusarookus
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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby pookusarookus » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:10 pm

Thanks. That appears to make a lot of sense. I'm amazed at how well TP uses what it has.-jan andu

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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby janMato » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:32 pm

pookusarookus wrote:toki ale o!

This is jan andu again. I got pretty busy so its been a while, but I'm still interested in toki pona. I've got a few other things to ask all of you how to translate. If you like I can put it as a different topic I just need to know how to make a different topic. Anyway here are the phrases/words I'd like to know how to say in toki pona:

"fast"
"slow"
"work faster!"
"it is too slow"
"this is fast"
"he is fast"

Any help, as always, is appreciated.
Cheers,
jan andu



akesi poki li tawa pi wawa ala. <-- Plausible usage of pi, but I can't remember seeing anyone else do it.
taso soweli pi nena kute suli tu li tawa wawa.
akesi en soweli li utala toki e sama.
"mi tawa wawa!"
"ala! sina toki sama jan lawa li kon taso."
"a. mi en sina li utala sijelo kepeken noka tu tu. o jan wawa li kama jan suli pi pini pi nena ma."
akesi li tawa lili. soweli li tawa wawa mute. soweli li kama nanpa wan. taso soweli en akesi ni li pini ala e utala sijelo.
soweli li pinin e ni: mi li nanpa wan li ken lape li pilin e wile lape suli. soweli li lape.
taso akesi li awen tawa.
akesi poki li tawa li tawa lon monsi soweli li tawa lon poka soweli li tawa lon sinpin soweli. askesi li kama nanpa wan!
utala sijelo li pini. soweli li pilin sama soweli ni: soweli li kepeken ala e lawa insa li lili tawa oko pi jan pona ona.
jan ale li toki e pona tawa akesi poki tan pali ona. pali li wawa lili. taso pali li awen.
Last edited by janMato on Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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jan Ote
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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby jan Ote » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:28 am

janMato wrote:akesi poki li tawa pi wawa ala. <-- Plausible usage of pi, but I can't remember seeing anyone else do it.
Because 'pi' is for noun group?

akesi en soweli li utala toki e sama.
No need to use "e sama".
"mi li tawa wawa!"
No "li" with "mi".
"ala! sina toki sama jan lawa li kon taso."
"No! You talk like a king(?) and you are like a wind only"?
"a. mi en sina li utala sijelo kepeken noka tu tu.
"utala" (fight) is by itself "sijelo" (body, corporal). For sports is better to use "utala musi" (see Olympic games).
o jan wawa li kama jan suli pi pini pi nena ma."I suppose "jan" is used here for an animal, with the meaning like "oh, let the quickest person [of us] became the greatest of finishing the hill (?).
taso akesi li pini ala e tawa.
But the turtle didn't stop/finish a movement.
Alternative:
taso akesi li pini ala tawa.
But the turtle didn't stop moving.

soweli li pilin sama soweli ni: soweli li kepeken ala e lawa insa li lili tawa oko pi jan pona ona.
The hare was feeling/thinking like this animal: animal is not using his brain(?) and is small to eye of his friend. (?)
jan ale li pana e pona tawa akesi poki tan pali ona.
All persons thanked to the turtle because of what he made.
pali li wawa lili. taso pali li pini ala.
Work is/was weak (slow), but work wasn't finished.(?)

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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby janMato » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:25 am

jan Ote wrote:
janMato wrote:akesi poki li tawa pi wawa ala. <-- Plausible usage of pi, but I can't remember seeing anyone else do it.
Because 'pi' is for noun group?


Exactly. ala modifies the head of a verb phrase, I need ala to modify the modifier. The difference between forcefully going nowhere (power waiting is the phrase that comes to mind when I'm waiting in lines at train stations) and going somewhere without much force.

akesi en soweli li utala toki e sama.
No need to use "e sama".


I just don't know on this issue. If subjects are obligatory, then why should objects be optional? The object is optional in English, but there doesn't seem to be any universal reason why other languages should have optional DO's

"ala! sina toki sama jan lawa li kon taso."
"No! You talk like a king(?) and you are like a wind only"?

Yup, that is what I had in mind. High and mighty gasbag.

"a. mi en sina li utala sijelo kepeken noka tu tu.
"utala" (fight) is by itself "sijelo" (body, corporal). For sports is better to use "utala musi" (see Olympic games).

But chess is a battle of wits and musi makes it sound pleasant. This is a serious duel between animals with their reputation at stake.

o jan wawa li kama jan suli pi pini pi nena ma."I suppose "jan" is used here for an animal, with the meaning like "oh, let the quickest person [of us] became the greatest of finishing the hill (?).

I guess I should have been more verbose: o soweli anu akesi li kama soweli suli anu akesi suli pi pini (sewi) pi nena ma." I working at conveying superlative. top-of-the-mountain-great, the greatest. The jan Pije lessons have the word superlative in it, but I only see the explanation for comparatives ( X Q lili. Y Q suli/mute. Y is more Q than X)

soweli li pilin sama soweli ni: soweli li kepeken ala e lawa insa li lili tawa oko pi jan pona ona.
The hare was feeling/thinking like this animal: animal is not using his brain(?) and is small to eye of his friend. (?)

Yeah. Science based phrases (primitive societies were sure where smarts were, I think Greeks figured thinking happened in the belly) and a metaphor SOCIAL PRESTIGE=PHYSICALLY BIG.

jan ale li pana e pona tawa akesi poki tan pali ona.
All persons thanked to the turtle because of what he made.

I was aiming for "praise", but pona covers so much ground.

pali li wawa lili. taso pali li pini ala.
Work is/was weak (slow), but work wasn't finished.(?)

Polysemy strikes again! I had in mind "didn't stop" "was continually ongoing"

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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby janKipo » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:27 pm

I love (not 'olin' obviously) 'akesi poki' in this context -- pun!
'pi' is a modifier grouper, usually in NPs but needed (and so used) in VPs as well.
They didn't toki e sama because sama are not things you say, but things that say. 'toki tawa sama' and not needed.
I got "talk like a politician and are (no 'sama' here) mere air" The point gets across in any case ('sina toki e ko yaki' works kinda nice, too).
I'm not sure about 'utala' being default physical, but in any case, the aim here is to contrast with 'utala toki'. Here comes a hard question: do critters other than jan have four noka or two luka and two noka, like jan though of different uses? And what about birds and fish and bugs? I suspect it depends on context, in particular, how much the forelegs are being used like hands. Here 'noka' seems right.
Superlatives are comparatives against all 'S X mute S ante ali X lili'. I expect a shortened form (as also for comparatives) but none is in sight. 'jan' is fine, since these are persons -- they talk after all -- in this context. I'm not sure that "great to the acme" is the looked for superlative, but it gets the message across: I got "will be King of the Hill" Of course, the beginning is not a comparative even (unless -- as I would suggest -- every adjective is a comparative, with the standard generally unstated but also possible to be expressed 'pi mi tu' here).
'pini ala tawa' is better, 'awen tawa' is best. "kept on going".
Somewhere I think it says that insa lawa (or is it lawa insa?) is the seat of intelligence and thinking and all that stuff.
"Praise" might just be 'toki e pona' "says good thing"to the turtle because of his deed.
Again, let me remind of 'awen' "keeps on keeping on".

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jan Ote
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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby jan Ote » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:22 am

janMato wrote:If subjects are obligatory
o toki!
janMato wrote:then why should objects be optional? The object is optional in English, but there doesn't seem to be any universal reason why other languages should have optional DO's
- soweli li lape.
- ni li lon ala. ona li moli.

janMato wrote:But chess is a battle of wits and musi makes it sound pleasant. This is a serious duel between animals with their reputation at stake.
A mere racing ("utala sijelo") vs. a battle, combat ("utala sijelo")?

janMato wrote:I working at conveying superlative. top-of-the-mountain-great, the greatest. The jan Pije lessons have the word superlative in it, but I only see the explanation for comparatives ( X Q lili. Y Q suli/mute. Y is more Q than X)
"jan" seems to be ok for persons (they are persons in the tale, aren't they?), but the expression for "top-of-the-mountain-great" is not clear for me (the "top of the mountain great" is an English metaphor, so not everybody tends to catch it at first glance in "jan suli pi pini(?) pi nena ma.").
janMato wrote:Yeah. Science based phrases (primitive societies were sure where smarts were, I think Greeks figured thinking happened in the belly) and a metaphor SOCIAL PRESTIGE=PHYSICALLY BIG.
Nice, but I don't grok what is "sama soweli ni" for. Looks like it's redundant.

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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby janMato » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:20 pm

jan Ote wrote:
janMato wrote:then why should objects be optional? The object is optional in English, but there doesn't seem to be any universal reason why other languages should have optional DO's
- soweli li lape.
- ni li lon ala. ona li moli.

A polysemious word that has a transitive and intransitive meaning isn't the same thing as what I have in mind.

There is almost nothing you can do sleeping to. If I sleep a sleep, then pragmatically speaking, there really aren't two actors on the stage. If he dies a death, again, there really aren't two actors on the stage. If I eat, in English the DO is optional. If I eat I must eat something. Even a plant (if it were able to eat) would be eating sunlight.

On the other hand, in English, "to throw" means the DO is more obligatory.

* I throw. (throw what?)
* I pick. (pick what?)
I pick up. (intransitive, but an entirely different meaning, meaning clean up the house, with many and various specific direct objects)

Verbs are hard. I'm going shopping.


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