o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

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Mako
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o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby Mako » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:00 pm

Perhaps this should go in musi rather than here, but I do have some translation questions. This is a translation of a song I learned at Carleton '94-'99, called "Darling, won't you wait?"

o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme.
sina wile awen anu seme.
mi wile tawa ma ante
sina wile awen anu seme.
sina wile awen anu seme.
mi wile tawa tomo la mi awen

o jan olin mi
ona li toki e ni:
ona tan mi mute li wile moli
o jan olin mi
toki pona li pona ala

olin ante li kama la
kama la
e toki tawa sina e ni:
mi ken ala.
o jan olin mi, sina wile awen anu seme.
sina wile awen anu seme.
sina wile awen tawa mi anu seme.

ma ante: the words are "far away", but I'm sure the song is about Vietnam.
mi wile tawa tomo la mi awen: "till I come back home to stay". Can 'tomo' be used as 'home' not just building? Do I need a word for 'back'?
ona tan mi mute li wile moli: "some of us, they say, are bound to die". Not sure about "some"
toki pona li pona ala: "it's so hard to say goodbye" - I have no idea of how to say this
e toki tawa sina e ni: "simply say that you're not free" - simple is implicit in Toki Pona, but I'm not sure about "ken ala" for 'free" in the sense of "mi jo e jan olin".

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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby janMato » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:47 pm

Mako wrote:o jan olin mi! sina wile awen anu seme?
sina wile awen anu seme.
mi wile tawa ma ante
sina wile awen anu seme.
sina wile awen anu seme.
mi wile tawa tomo la mi awen

My love! Do you want to wait? (2x)
I want to go somewhere else.
Do you want to wait? (2x)
I'll wait if I want to go to (my) house. (Huh?)

Mako wrote:o jan olin mi
ona li toki e ni:
ona (li?) tan mi mute li wile moli
o jan olin mi
toki pona li pona ala

My love, they say it is from us and want to die(?)
My love, good words are not good (enough? anymore?)

Mako wrote:olin ante li kama la
kama la
[mi wile](?) e toki tawa sina e ni:
mi ken ala.
o jan olin mi, sina wile awen anu seme.
sina wile awen anu seme.
sina wile awen tawa mi anu seme.

if other loves come, I want to say this to you,
I can't.
My love, will you wait? (2x)
Will you wait for me?

Do you have a link to the lyrics? (In what ever language) I'd like to give a shot at translating this as well.

Mako
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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby Mako » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:38 pm

Here are the toki sin for the song.

jan olin o
sina wile awen anu seme
sina wile awen anu seme
mi wile tawa ma ante
sina wile awen anu seme
sina wile awen anu seme
mi tawa tomo la mi wile awen

jan olin ante li kama la
kama la
o toki e ni: mi ken ala.
jan olin ante li kama la
kama la
jan olin o
sina wile awen anu seme tawa mi

jan olin mi o
ona li toki e ni: ona mute tan mi li wile moli
jan olin mi o
toki pana li pilin ike mute tawa mi

(yes, I should have looked up "goodbye" before typing this)

Darling,
won't you wait,
won't you wait,
for I must go far away.
Darling,
won't you wait,
won't you wait,
'Til I come back home to stay.

Should another love come along,
Come along,
Simply say that you're not free;
Should another love come along,
Come along,
Darling,
Won't you wait for me?

O my love,
Some of us, they say, are bound to die,
O my love,
How I hate to say good-bye.

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jan Ote
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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby jan Ote » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:18 am

Mako wrote:mi wile tawa ma ante

mi tawa weka mute? (far away)
mi tawa ma weka? (distant land)
And here "mi wile tawa" can be replaced by "(jan) lawa li wile e ni: mi tawa..." (THEY, govt, want me to go).

Mako wrote:toki pana li pilin ike mute tawa mi
toki li pilin...? How "a talk" can "feel/think"?
mi toki e nimi ni: "mi tawa" la mi pilin ike mute.
 When I say these words: "Good bye", I feel very badly.
Shorter, but ambigous:
nimi "mi tawa" li ike mute tawa mi.
 The words "Good bye" are very bad for me.
Mako wrote:(yes, I should have looked up "goodbye" before typing this)
mi tawa! = good bye (spoken by the person who's leaving)
tawa pona! = good bye (spoken by the person who's staying)
 (jan Pije, Lesson 9)

Mako wrote:ona li toki e ni: ona mute tan mi li wile moli
"some of us, they say, are bound to die". Not sure about "some"
  1. 'wile' is "want/must", then not very good here ('...li wile moli'=suicides?)
  2. Some of us are bound to die = some of us cannot avoid death
    I fact, each and every one of them (and of us) will certainly die.
  3. Tokiponian 'ona' is anaphoric, means "he, she, it, they", not English "one", "some".
Maybe:
ona li toki e ni: wan pi mi mute li moli tan utala.
 They say: part of us will die from fight.
Anyway the sense is just:
ken la mi moli tan utala.
 Could be I will die from fight.
ken la mi moli tan utala lon ma ni.
 Could be I will be killed there.

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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby janKipo » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:07 am

Not at all literal:
jan olin mi o
o sina li awen
o sina li awen
tan ni la mi wile lawa tawa weka mute
jan olin mi o
o sina awen
o sina awen
tawa tenpo ni: mi tawa tomo tawa awen.

olin ante li kama la
kam la
o toki e ni: sina li ken ala.
olin ante li kama la
kama la
jan olin mi o
o sina awen tawa mi.

olin mi o.
ona li toki e ni: mute lili pi mi mute li kama lon moli.
olin mi o.
mi pilin ike tan ni: mi toki e nimi 'mi tawa'.

Weird decisions defended ad hoc but modified in the face of severe criticism.

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jan Ote
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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby jan Ote » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:18 pm

  1. o sina li awen
    What "li" does here? I think it's a mistake.
  2. tan ni la mi wile lawa tawa weka mute
    What "lawa" does here? What "ni" points at?
    The previous sentence is "o sina li awen" (to mean simple "wait!", I suppose), then the meaning is "Wait (for me). Because of THIS (waiting) I must/want to lead(?) to far away".
  3. o sina awen
    The sentence begins from "o", then it is an imperative mode, then it should be "o awen!" (default subject for imperative is "you", 'sina') or imperative+vocative: "sina o awen!".
  4. tawa tenpo ni: mi tawa tomo tawa awen.
    "Until this time: I go home to stay." Nice.
  5. kama la
    Typo.
  6. o toki e ni: sina li ken ala.
    No 'li' with 'sina'.
  7. ona li toki e ni: mute lili pi mi mute li kama lon moli.
    Why 'lon', not just '...li kama moli'? = "...will die, become dead"?

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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby janMato » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:48 pm

jan Ote wrote: ona li toki e ni: mute lili pi mi mute li kama lon moli.
Why 'lon', not just '...li kama moli'? = "...will die, become dead"?[/list]


Actually, if we take bare preps to mean the metaphorical sense of a preposition (like poka) and lon anpa/lon sewi/etc. to mean the spatial sense, then...

jan li kama ma pi jan moli. The person died, (went to the land of the dead, metaphorically speaking).
jan li kama lon ma pi jan moli. The zombie went to the land of the dead (probably paid his fare, got in the boat and crossed the Styx.)
jan li tawa ma pi suno anpa. The person went west, (died like the sun).
jan li tawa lon ma pi suno anpa. The person went west, either to France or California.
kon sewi pi jan moli li tawa lon sewi. The person's soul (literally) rose in to the sky.

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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby jan Ote » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:27 pm

janMato wrote:Actually, if we take bare preps to mean the metaphorical sense of a preposition (like poka) and lon anpa/lon sewi/etc. to mean the spatial sense
Still don't understand 'lon' in "...li kama lon moli" - we come to Death as a place???
janMato wrote:jan li kama ma pi jan moli. The person died, (went to the land of the dead, metaphorically speaking).
"jan li kama TAWA ma pi jan moli." OR "jan li TAWA ma pi jan moli."
janMato wrote:jan li kama lon ma pi jan moli. The zombie went to the land of the dead (probably paid his fare, got in the boat and crossed the Styx.)
I cannot see any difference. "The land of the dead" is the land of the dead. Lexically 'ma' is a place, it has the spatial sense in both sentences. We have no way to tell, when it is "a metaphorical" land and when it is not. Lexic or grammar can't and won't help. I cannot do it even in my own language. If I could, then it wouldn't be a metaphora.
And "kama lon ma" seems to me to be not correct.
janMato wrote:jan li tawa ma pi suno anpa. The person went west, (died like the sun).
jan li tawa lon ma pi suno anpa. The person went west, either to France or California.
For me it's against established usage:
mi wile tawa ma Tosi. = I want to go to Germany.
NOT: *mi wile tawa lon ma Tosi.
because we have got:
mi wile tawa lon ma Tosi. = I want to move about in Germany (not travel to the country).
janMato wrote:kon sewi pi jan moli li tawa lon sewi. The person's soul (literally) rose in to the sky.
Soul of dead person is moving on hights (over [sth...?]).

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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby janMato » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:41 pm

jan Ote wrote:
janMato wrote:Actually, if we take bare preps to mean the metaphorical sense of a preposition (like poka) and lon anpa/lon sewi/etc. to mean the spatial sense
Still don't understand 'lon' in "...li kama lon moli" - we come to Death as a place???

I'm not sure what "li kama lon moli" means. To me it implies a dead place. I agree it looks like a mistake.

The idea comes from the discussion about poka vs all the other things that look like prepositions. (Reference is somewhere in the POS 1st pass thread), where jan Kipo (as I may have understood him) said that poka is a metaphorical "with" and the others, such as "lon sike" are literal and spatial. To which I said, hmm, then bare prepositions and things that look like prepositions must have a metaphorical sense that "lon sike", "lon sewi" etc don't have.

I agree, the idea breaks down the most with "jan li tawa lon ma", which has a more plausible reading of moving around inside the boundaries of a land. (or souls pacing about in heaven)

When someone dies and is literally put in the ground, they went to the land of the dead metaphorically-- which usually is a paradise or some inexplicable state of being. (Unless a cemetery is the land of the dead, which is a valid, too.)

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Re: o jan olin mi sina wile awen anu seme

Postby jan Ote » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:55 pm

janMato wrote:When someone dies and is literally put in the ground, they went to the land of the dead metaphorically-- which usually is a paradise or some inexplicable state of being.
Here and now. But it is only your (and mine) modern interpretation of this expression. If I would like to translate the full text of the Bible, the Odyssey or the Epic of Gilgamesh (tablet 12), or ..., then there is the land of the dead there, and it is a real place. Not a metaphorical one. The expresion itself doesn't indicate whether "the land of the dead" is a real place or is it a language metaphor, not having a literal meaning, a heritage from ancient times and ancient opinions. Nor a sentence with this expression, like "ona li tawa ma pi jan moli" (Orpheus, Baldur, Enkidu, Ulisses, Chufu, Priam, or jan pona mi?). We have no language means to tell. We can't have and shouldn't have, that's why I'm against attempts to distinguish "spatial" and "metaphorical" land of the dead in toki pona.


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