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POS - first pass - Page 6 - Toki Pona Forums

POS - first pass

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
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janMato
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janMato » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:41 am


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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:04 pm

But the example given is of a DO in the subject slot, not of a NP complement. Still, you won't be using these objectionable forms and I doubt that many other will either, so its legitimacy is moot. It has been great fun (and considerable information) arguing with you. Maybe another point will come along for a new exchange.

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jan Ote
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Re: POS - first pass

Postby jan Ote » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:04 am


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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:02 am

Thanks. Yes, context is all. And I still have trouble recognizing -- let alone interpreting -- nouns as vt. How, for example to distinguish those that mean "cause to be" from those that mean "apply to".And, of course, is this a real (in tp terms) difference?

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janMato » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: noun as verb meaning "cause to become"

I would have said
sina kama kama soweli tomo e mi. I don't like this too much either because unmarked complements make the most sense with prep phrases and it awkward look to parse this as a prep phrase with a modal and a direct object.
you - (modal) prep phrase - come to/become - house animal - DO - me.

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:11 pm

But 'kama kama soweli tomo' is a VP complement to a modal, which VP is again a VP complement to a modal. The second VP is a noun +modifier. No prepositions involved. I am not sure quite what to make of the first 'kama', apparently meaning "cause to" or some such, but then that seems to require a DO of what is caused, not a complement. 'kama soweli e DO' is enough for cause to become, the vt from the vi "become". This all needs some work, apparently.
Last edited by janKipo on Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janMato » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:47 pm

D'oh! mi pakala.

the classic word list says "tan" and "pana" have something to do with "cause" I have no idea where I got the idea that "li kama X" mean "to cause to X"

So it would be

mi pana kama soweli tomo e soweli nasa.
I cause (to bring about/summon) domesticated animal the wild animal.

Now the problem is that soweli tomo is post verb, pre "e", which I haven't figured out if this is legit, reasonable or what.

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:25 pm

'soweli tomo' is a verb phrase, which happens to consist of a noun phrase (mutter, mutter!) meaning "be a domestic beast", just as it would be ijn a simple pointing at a cat: 'ni li soweli tomo.'
Remotely relevant, I now thing that 'x li N e DO' just means "x makes 'DO li N' true" and then the separation between "cause to be" and "apply to" comes out in the ambiguity of 'y li N' : "y is an N" and 'y is Nish'; 'ona li telo' might be "it is water" or it might be "it is wet", for example. The noun use and the modifier use,
Sorting out the causatives here is a muddle that I haven't got much of a grip yet:
'tan' means "source, cause" as a noun, "original, causal" maybe as modifier. So, to be totally confusing, 'x is the cause of y' might be either 'x li tan (pi) y' or 'y li tan x' (definitely no 'pi'). That means that 'tan' is not aa good word to use about causes, except in fixed expressions like 'tan ni'.
I'm not sure about 'pana' as a causal notion; it does move something along, but this seem really physical for the most part. It might make sense to say, say, 'jan sewi li pana e lon tawa jan' but 'ona li pana e ni: jan mute li utala' doesn't seem right (possbly as granting a wish?)
'kama' gets involved in "cause" because it somehow gets the "cause to be true" sense when transitive, but that doesn't fit in well with other modals (and, indeed, 'kama' is strange there anyhow). But 'ona kama e ni: jan mute li utala' seems OK. All very subjective.

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby majika » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:38 am

hey guys,

I ended up on this thread while trying to understand "mi lon luka mi e telo pona" on Toki Pona Dave's site (http://sites.google.com/site/tokiponadave/).

I found myself struggling with the concept of "lon luka mi" as (apparently) a transitive verb, describing the action that "mi" was doing to the "telo pona". This doesn't make much sense to me, given what I learnt about "lon" from Lesson 6 (http://bknight0.myweb.uga.edu/toki/lesson/lesson6.html).

The only use of "lon" with "e" that I could see was "mi lon e sina", meaning something along the lines of "I bring you into existence".

Given that "X li lon e Y" means that X brings Y into existence, it seems natural to me that a construction like "X li lon Z e Y" would see Z as an adverb to the verb "to bring into existence".

So going back to "mi lon [luka mi] e telo pona": this seems to parse as "I bring [in a my-handly manner] the good/clean water into existence". You can see why this left me scratching my head somewhat.. ;)

I've since fathomed that "mi lon luka mi e telo pona" was written to mean something like "I place my hands where the clean water is / I wash my hands". For the reasons explained above, I believe that this is an error.

The lessons give the example "mi telo e luka mi" for "I wash my hands". Given that, I can't see what's wrong with "mi telo e luka mi kepeken telo pona".

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Re: POS - first pass

Postby janKipo » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:41 am

Actually, it means "I put good water on my hands/arms". Dave may have meant to say "I put my hands in good water," which is "mi lon telo pona e lukin mi". This is a perfectly normal construction, but tends to be a confusing one, so nobody but Dave and I use it regularly. The usual form would unfold the central complex to "mi lon e telo pona lon lukin mi" The point is that 'lon' is a Preposition, meaning "at", like 'tawa' and 'tan', and thus can have a noun phrase following it that is not an object (i.e., doesn't require 'e'). And it has this feature in all positions. So, in an intransitive verb slot, it means "be true" or "be present" In the latter case, without its noun complement it means either "be here" (Roll call: 'jan Siwawi?' 'lon') or "exist" (be present in the world generally). With the complement it means "be at" the named place. Then, like many intransitive verbs, it can be made transitive in a causative sense: Subj causes DO to [whatever the verb is. in this case "be present (at NP, if provided)]. So the whole is "I cause good water to be present at my arms" (presumably by moving the water, not the arms). If the point is just washing, your sentence would do as well but be less flashy.


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