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Olympic games - Toki Pona Forums

Olympic games

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
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aikidave
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Olympic games

Postby aikidave » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:16 pm

kulupu mama mi li lukin e utala musi pi sike luka.
utala musi li lon ma tomo Wacuwa.
jan pi utala musi li tawa noka lon tomo suli.
jan tu tu pi utala musi li suno e poka seli.

meli mi li lukin e jan pi tawa musi lon telo kiwen.
ni li pona tawa meli mi.
mi lukin e meli pona lukin.
meli pona lukin li pona tawa mi.
mi lukin e jan kepeken palisa suli tu.
ona li tawa anpa nena.

meli mi li wile jo e len luka loje tan utala musi.
jan pona pi meli mi li pana e len luka loje tawa meli mi.
meli mi li pilin pona.

jan wan li kama moli lon utala musi.
jan ni li lawa e tomo tawa lon nasin pi telo kiwen.
tomo tawa ona li weka e nasin.
sijelo jan li pakala.
mi mute li pilin ike pi ni.
mi mute li toki jan sewi tawa jan ni.

Comments / corrections please. This is what I was trying to say:

My family watched the Olympic games.
They were held in Vancouver.
The athletes marched into the colloseum.
Four athletes lit the olympic torch.

My wife watched the figure skaters.
She likes figure skating.
I watched the pretty girls.
I like pretty girls.
I watched the skiers.
They travel down the mountain.

My wife wanted the red olypic mittens.
My wife's girlfriend gave her the mittens.
My wife was happy.

One person died at the olympic games.
He drove a sled on the ice track.
His sled left the track.
His body was hurt.
We feel bad about this.
We pray to God for him.

janMato
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Re: Olympic games

Postby janMato » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:50 pm

I understood 100%.

I would have said "jan pi utala musi li tawa noka lon insa tomo suli."
I don't know if there is a commonly accepted way to distinguish on vs in vs into.

mi lukin e meli pi pona lukin.
meli pi pona lukin li pona tawa mi.

The goodness of the girls is the visible sort. (You wrote the girls are good and visible)

mi lukin e jan ni: jan li kepeken palisa suli tu.
You weren't using 2 big sticks. The people you were watching were using 2 big sticks.

If you agree with jan Kipo and jan Pije-- that toki is somehow like kama or tawa--then this needs to be:
mi mute li toki jan ni tawa jan sewi. We spoke (about) this person to God.
(Personally, I do not like this. toki does not at feel like tawa and kama seems like an arrival metaphor applied to the abstractions of coming-into-a-new-existence, so toki doesn't fit either pattern.)

If you agree with me and like object incorporation into verb phrases--similar to the English intransitive "to birdwatch"--, then
mi mute li toki pi jan ni tawa jan sewi. We this-person-spoke to God.

Or if you want to stay true to your free spirit and incorporate obliques into the verb phrase at least use pi
mi mute li toki pi jan sewi tawa jan ni. We god-talked about (concerning/on behalf of) this person

janKipo
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Re: Olympic games

Postby janKipo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:03 pm

Um, don't put words in my mouth; I have more than enough of my own. I don't like any of the incorporation schemes (though if you use one and incorporate more than a single word, use 'pi'). 'toki' is not like either 'tawa' or 'kama' (which are very different in themselves). It does not take a complement, nor, I think, a similarly connected NP for "about", which we still don't have an agreed upon way to say. 'mi mute li toki tawa jan sewi tawa jan ni' "We talk to God in behalf of this man"
From the top.
Wankuwa.
Yes, 'meli pi pona lukin'
Yes about 'jan kepeken palisa' involves a PP in an NP, a move that is either illegal or in dispute or requires a 'pi'. Mato's solution is one possibility (I would put the pieces in the opposite order) or you could replace 'kepeken' by 'pi' with the resulting ambiguity. I'm not sure which is best here,
'len luka loje tan utala musi' See above. I think the best solution here is just replace the 'tan' by 'pi'.
'pilin ike pi ni' 'pi' requires two words and I don't like this "about" in any case (the obvious ambiguity being only one). 'tan ni' works.
"in" vs "into" 'lon insa' vs tawa insa' In the present case, I don't think the 'insa' is necessary, but that relies on background knowledge -- which is an acceptable reliance in tp.

janMato
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Re: Olympic games

Postby janMato » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:15 pm


janKipo
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Re: Olympic games

Postby janKipo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:52 pm

Yup! I did say I could live with it gladly -- not quite the same as being in favor of it, but then... . I also retracted even that bit in a toki lili note to you and now would come on even more strongly against: it creates more problems then it is worth (but note that I would feel comfortable with a more complex addition, an adverbial phrase beginning with 'lawa', say, that explicitly introduced topics even before the DO.)
Stuff about 'tawa' and 'kama' and 'toki' is somewhere else around this morning, but why do you say the motion is metaphorical in 'kama' which is more obviously a verb of motion than 'tawa', which is merely directional and not a Verb, of course)?

janMato
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Re: Olympic games

Postby janMato » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:18 pm


janKipo
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Re: Olympic games

Postby janKipo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Well, yes, this is all sneaking toward using 'lawa' or something else as a preposition meaning "about" But it would be used almost exclusively with a narrow class of verbs and so another structure might be preferable. But both the complement form and the modifier one seem inappropriate and liable to lead to confusion (and to furthering the notion of object or even oblique inclusion, which would complicate the language unnecessarily). To a certain extent, the modifier format can be justified as adverbial, something about how you do things, but for prehension verbs, especially 'toki,' that might be better used for indicating language than for topic. And, of course, ordinary modifications like "well" or "ill" or "rapidly". (I note, in passing, the tendency to say 'mi pilin ike' rather than 'mi pilin e ike' for "I am feeling bad" in all the range that covers in tp. But that clearly means "I am not good at pilin" with all that that means : I am illogical, my sensory nerves are shot, I am cynical, and so on. On the other hand, it is often a little hard to isolate the ike I'm feeling.)
'tawa' is a Preposition, 'kama' is a Modal (I think-- there are a few problems there) So 'tawa' can always take a NP complement (well, maybe not as a head noun) and 'kama' as a verb can take a VP complement (including NP as verb). Put that way, 'kama's motion does look to be metaphorical, I now see. The point is that 'kama' is like 'wile', not like 'tawa' in this respect at least.

aikidave
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Re: Olympic games

Postby aikidave » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:54 pm

Thank you for your corrections and explanations. I am posting the updated version on my google site.
The discussions of complements and modals are still confusing to me, not being a linguist, but I am learning more each day!
pona


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