Sentence Confusion

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
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francescaxsmurf
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:31 am

Sentence Confusion

Post by francescaxsmurf »

I am wondering how i would break down this line to say it in toki pona.

"Can she, eight states away, knock at my door?"

(i apologize for the strangeness of the line, it's from a poem of mine)

Would i first change the wording to, "She is eight states away. Can she knock at my door?"

But then i run into another problem ( i just started learning this language today) the only verb in my first sentence here is "is", but i can't find is in the language of toki pona.
so i wondered if i would just say "She's away eight states" or "Ona li weka ma luka tu wan".

I wanted to use commas (like in english) and say the line "Ona li ken ala ken, ma luka tu wan weka, kalama e mi lupa." but i get the feeling this is very wrong even without the commas which i am pretty sure are a definite no no to begin with.
so i am wondering if i should say it the way i had changed it in english to begin with, as this: "Ona li weka ma luka tu wan. Ona li ken ala ken kalama e mi lupa."

But, do i repeat ken or kalama? Should it read instead as "Ona li ken kalama ala kalama e mi lupa." Does it make a difference? I personally like saying ken twice to stress the importance of me asking whether or not she is actually able to do such a thing at all and not just whether or not she can knock (make noise), but i guess it doesn't really alter the meaning either way so what is the correct way if there is one?

am i overthinking what is supposed to be a simple language or am i actually way off and do, in fact, need guidance?
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jan Ote
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Re: Sentence Confusion

Post by jan Ote »

francescaxsmurf wrote:kalama e mi lupa.
The order in toki pona is opposite:
lupa suli mi = my big hole
francescaxsmurf wrote:"Can she, eight states away, knock at my door?"
ona li weka tan ni la ona li ken ala ken kalama lon selo pi lupa tomo mi?
Literally:
When she is away from here then she can or not can make-sound on surface of hole of house of me?
francescaxsmurf wrote:But, do i repeat ken or kalama?
The main predicate-forming verb here is "ken":
ona li ken ala ken...? means "can she or cannot [she]...?"
janMato
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Re: Sentence Confusion

Post by janMato »

What is nice about tp is that you can take it in many directions. Here is one translation, many others are possible. I'm taking this is a poem about long distance internet based puppy love? I answered some of your specific questions at the end.

That love that’s not my love, she lies to me.
Can she, eight states away, knock at my door?
The messages she sends cause me to freeze,
So out I go to see if she’s not there.
I come back to a monitor asleep;
If you were there, you’re there no more,
Nor here for me to speak.
Source...

olin sin mi li toki e ni: ona li toki e lon ala.
meli li lon ni : tawa li lon ni li ma nanpa luka wan tu. ken la meli li kalama e lupa tomo mi?
mi li lete kiwen tan ni: meli li toki tawa mi kepeken ilo nanpa
mi kama tawa e ilo nanpa lape
meli li lon ni ala la meli li lon ala
mi ken ala toki tawa meli

my new love says this: "she says untruth"
she is here : "the journey is here and is eight lands" maybe she is making noise (on) my home's opening (door)?
I freeze (rock-cool) because of this : "She talks to me with the computer"
I come to the sleeping computer
if she is not here, then she doesn't exist
I can't talk to her.

8 states away- This is difficult to translate. Spatial relationships are a bit fuzzy in toki pona. When you get to something difficult, sometimes you need to go in an entirely different direction, e.g. "she's out of sight, she's in ohio, she's in another land" to convey much the same general idea.

re: repeating words- There isn't an official meaning for reduplication. AFAIK, no one knows what repeating a word means. In various real languages, reduplication can mean emphasis, plural or other things. *However* Repetition in poetry is okay because you need to match meter somehow.

over thinking- Well, it is easy to over talk using toki pona. If you convey everything that is conveyed in the English, the sentence will be very, very long. You have to pick the salient facts and rely on the reader to pick up the rest.
Last edited by janMato on Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
janKipo
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Re: Sentence Confusion

Post by janKipo »

open la o kama pona tawa toki pona, jan laso lili o.

nanpa tu la tenpo mute la jan Ote en jan Mato li toki e lon (tenpo lili la ala). o pali e ijo pi toki ona.

pini la mi kin li toki e nimi Inli ni:
Yes, you have to put all subordinate clauses (or fragments thereof, except as noted later) into separate sentences in tp, whence a part of its apparent prolixity. The rest comes from trying to get in all the details English gets by having a bigger vocabulary.

tp doesn't have an "is" in the copula sense, a word that hooks nouns to adjectives or other nouns; the theory is that the adjective or noun is enough, we get the connection. There is 'li', of course, but it just keeps the subjects away from the predicates and doesn't mean anything (though, if it helps you to use it right, you can think of it as that 'is' -- but notice you use it eve if "is" is not appropriate).

Commas don't help much in tp, though there are some places where some folk use them sometimes (no real rules about it yet): after 'la' and before the prepositional phrases at the end. Other folk use them even more randomly. But they never work to set off subordinate clauses (since there aren't any in tp -- except 'la' when it is preceded by a sentence).

tp doesn't do vectors well and does tensors not at all. So, it is hard to say "to the east" or "off to the right" but it is (so far) impossible to say "by thirty yards" Part of this is the lack of numbers, of course, but there is no tensor words at all yet defined. So, for the nonce, we're stuck with just "She is far away. Can she knock?" 'ona li weka. sona ken ala ken kalama lon selo pi lupa tomo.' (other cases remind us that 'lupa tomo' can be windows, too, and even just holes knocked in walls or roof, but we survive on context here. But one could knock on a window, as often happens in various traditions of romance, if that is what is involved here).

Repeat 'ken;' the question is about ability, not noise.

Overthinking is probably worse than underthinking as far as tp is concerned (witness the sort of fussy comments I make all over the place -- and also the general philosophy inherent here), but shoot for a close as you can get in a reasonable number of words.

in la o kama pona
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