toki pi kalama pona suli

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jan Josan
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toki pi kalama pona suli

Post by jan Josan »

I am beginning a translation of Tommaso Landolfi's "Dialogue of the Greater Harmonies"
all suggestions welcome

toki pi kalama pona suli
-jan Tomaso Lantopi

suno kama la mi mute li pine e lape. mi mute li tawa sewi tan supa anpa. mi mute li pilin musi sama e sona tu: mi moli ala; ale li ante ala. tenpo suno wan la mi pilin sama ni. mi lukin e tomo lupa tawa ma li kepeken e sona lili. jan pona mi J li kama tawa tomo mi, li pana e kalama luka wawa lon selo pi tomo lupa.

ona li jan pi toki lili en pilin ike. tenpo mute la ona li pali, lon poka jan ante ala. tenpo suno wan ni la, ni li musi kin: ona li jo e wawa mute. mi len. mi mute li toki e ijo lili. ni li nasa: pilin ona li ike pakala en pona sewi. kepeken pali lili la, mi ken sona e ni: ona li kama jo e ijo nasa anu ijo ike kin. tenpo lili li kama. mi kute e ona. ona li toki e ni: ona li jo e toki nasa. ona li wile toki e ni tawa mi. ona li ken toki e ni kepeken tenpo lili. taso ale li lukin nasa la, mi ken ala pini e toki ona.

mi wile sona e ni: seme li lon? mi toki e ona: o toki.
...
jan-ante
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Post by jan-ante »

jan Josan wrote:
mi mute li tawa sewi tan supa anpa.
may be without anpa
mi mute li pilin musi sama e sona tu:
mi mute li pilin musi tan sona tu ni
ale li ante ala.
ijo ale pi tnsnni*smij@tnsnpi
mi lukin e tomo lupa tawa ma li kepeken e sona lili.
mi lukin tawa lupa tomo mi li pilin e ijo ala
jan pona mi J li kama tawa tomo mi, li pana e kalama luka wawa lon selo pi tomo lupa.
taso mi kute e akalam lili: jnpomiJ*km twtmmi
ona li jan pi toki lili en pilin ike.

pilin ike is not a right expression here. if you want to translate verbaly, it will take a few sentences
tenpo suno wan ni la, ni li musi kin: ona li jo e wawa mute.
tan ni la mi pilin nasa tan ni: ona li kama musi wawa
mi mute li toki e ijo lili.
mi tu...
ni li nasa: pilin ona li ike pakala en pona sewi.
ni li nasa tawa mi: pilin ona li ante tan ike pakala tawa pona sewi
kepeken pali lili la, mi ken sona e ni: ona li kama jo e ijo nasa anu ijo ike kin.

lukin pona la ijo nasa anu ijo ike li kmtwon
tenpo lili li kama.
...li tawa
ona li toki e ni: ona li jo e toki nasa. ona li wile toki e ni tawa mi.
ona li wile toki e ijo tawa mi
ona li ken toki e ni kepeken tenpo lili.
ona li wile toki e ni kepeken nimi lili
taso ale li lukin nasa la, mi ken ala pini e toki ona.
mi wile sona e ni: seme li lon? mi toki e ona: o toki.
ts al*luns twmi. tani^miwiso~ni...
janKipo
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Post by janKipo »

iknwitsvsytmbtitisannyng!
janMato
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Post by janMato »

*edits in bold

I'll defer to others on the copy-editing. I understood your version just fine, but I'll add an alternate version to the first para.

tempo mun ni la mi lape. suno li kama. mi lape ala.

mi lukin e mi. mi moli ala! a a a! mi pilin e pona.
mi lukin e ijo mi. ijo li awen e ijo mi! a a a! mi pilin e pona.

tempo mute la sina pilin ala pilin e ni kin lon tempo pi kama suno?

mi lukin e ala lon lupa tomo. mi pilin sama e ni: mi pali ala e lawa insa mi. oko mi li pali ala.

tempo suno ni la jan pona mi li kama tawa tomo mi. jan li pana e kalama mute lon lupa tomo. (previously "lupa tomo pi jan mute"-- I had in building-hole for people, as opposed to window)
Last edited by janMato on Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Post by janKipo »

<<tempo mute la sina li pilin e ni kin lon tempo pi kama suno?>>
Need something to make this a question, if you want that" 'sina pilin ala pilin e ni' (no 'li' in this case)

<<mi pali ala e lawa mi>> "I do not make my head"? 'lawa mi li pali ala'?

<<mi lukin e ala lon tomo lupa.>> "I see nothing in the dugout" 'lupa tomo' "door"?

<<tempo suno ni la jan pona mi li kama tawa tomo mi. jan li pana e kalama mute lon lupa tomo pi jan mute.>> "in the door of many people"? maybe 'lupa pi tomo pi jan mute' "at the door of the house of many people (apartment building, dorm)?
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Post by janMato »

* edit, do'h needed to reverse order of lupa tomo.

There's got to be a clever way to distinguish door and window.

lupa tomo. door, window, skylight, that hole the tree made when it fell through the living room ceiling
lupa tomo tawa suno. window, building hole for sun. Do I need relative clauses to use this phrase?
mi lukin e soweli kepeken lupa tomo tawa suno.
tawa suno looks like a prep phrase that modifies a noun in another prep phrase. Is that legal?

lupa tomo tawa mun. opposite of tomo lupa tawa suno, but entirely to clever to be transparent.

lupa tomo suli. Big window/door
lupa tomo jan. People's building hole.

lupa tomo open. opening building hole.
tomo lupa pi kama open.
Last edited by janMato on Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
janKipo
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Post by janKipo »

Short forms :'lupa tomo tawa' 'lupa tomo lukin' which ignores French doors, etc. But you can't use relative clauses in tp, you need another whole sentence and it just doesn't seem worth while. As for prep phrases modifying nouns, it is not clear whether it is legal or not (but probably is when we get around to making the rules clear) and, if it is, whether it needs 'pi' or not (I think it does, but ...). (I note, looking back, that 'lupa tomo tawa' does not -- and, indeed, cannot -- mean "a hole in a car"

Note throughout that 'lupa tomo' is a dugout (in the early Kansas sense), a hole that is a house or home or some sort of structure.

We also need to distinguish doors from doorways (which is what 'lupa tomo' and the like are) and windowways from windows, at least sometimes. For some reason, 'sinpin' comes to mind in this connection.
Last edited by janKipo on Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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jan Josan
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Post by jan Josan »

(I've expanded 2-letter codes in green for other reader's ease and to make sure I understood the comments)
jan-ante wrote:
jan Josan wrote:
mi mute li tawa sewi tan supa anpa.
may be without anpa
pona. simpler is better
mi mute li pilin musi sama e sona tu:
mi mute li pilin musi tan sona tu ni
looses the sense of "equally surprised/amused" but probably worth it for clarity
ale li ante ala.
ijo ale pi tnsnni*smij@tnsnpi
"ijo ale pi tenpo suno ni li sama e ijo pi tenpo suno pini"
yes, longer, but closer to the original
mi lukin e tomo lupa tawa ma li kepeken e sona lili.
mi lukin tawa lupa tomo mi li pilin e ijo ala
Afraid this might sound like "not feeling objects." But this may actually be a closer to the original "staring in stupid abstraction." I also don't want to use a 'pilin' that can be confused with the pilin musi that was just mentioned, so I used sona lili. also thought of lon sona weka for some equivalent of 'lost in thought' but I'm guessing this is an English calque and even less clear.
jan pona mi J li kama tawa tomo mi, li pana e kalama luka wawa lon selo pi tomo lupa.
taso mi kute e akalam lili: jnpomiJ*km twtmmi
"taso mi kute e kalama lili: jan pona mi J li kama tawa tomo mi"
jan Kipo wrote:We also need to distinguish doors from doorways (which is what 'lupa tomo' and the like are) and windowways from windows, at least sometimes. For some reason, 'sinpin' comes to mind in this connection.
under Sonja's draft page for selo there is "make unavailable or inaccessible; barrier block passage or access. To move (a door, for example) so that an opening or passage is covered or obstructed; shut." which is why I tried to use selo pi lupa tomo,(mistyped tomo lupa "holey house"--thanks for the catch janMato) trying to distinguish between the hole and the door (and the window that he was just staring out, alas.) the original is "when my friend Y announced himself with a series of hasty knocks rapped out on the door of my room." I still like my original best, but welcome more discussion.

ona li jan pi toki lili en pilin ike.

pilin ike is not a right expression here. if you want to translate verbaly, it will take a few sentences
Yes, you're right. how about pilin pimeja or pilin ike lon pimeja as used in "dark teenage poetry"? original is "shy and touchy man" and I would like to keep it short or cut it out entirely.
tenpo suno wan ni la, ni li musi kin: ona li jo e wawa mute.
tan ni la mi pilin nasa tan ni: ona li kama musi wawa
with or without the 'tenpo suno wan ni la'? I think I want to establish that this one time was unusual.
mi mute li toki e ijo lili.
mi tu...
pona
ni li nasa: pilin ona li ike pakala en pona sewi.
ni li nasa tawa mi: pilin ona li ante tan ike pakala tawa pona sewi
pona mute
kepeken pali lili la, mi ken sona e ni: ona li kama jo e ijo nasa anu ijo ike kin.

lukin pona la ijo nasa anu ijo ike li kmtwon
"lukin pona la ijo nasa anu ijo ike li kama tawa ona"
lukin pona la = easy to see that...? Interesting. I think I might weka all la phrases and go with: "mi ken sona pona e ni: ijo nasa anu ijo ike li kama tawa ona."
tenpo lili li kama.
...li tawa
Interesting. I going to go with your tawa, but is there any way to establish what is the best for "time passing" (tenpo kama/tawa/weka/moli/sewi/anpa/monsi/lon?) We'd better figure this out before anyone takes on tomo moli nanpa luka.
ona li toki e ni: ona li jo e toki nasa. ona li wile toki e ni tawa mi.
ona li wile toki e ijo tawa mi
I seem to think of ijo more as an object than an event. I'm not sure how to say "he experienced something nasa. he wanted to tell me about it." (not in the original, but the only way to establish the condition below.)
ona li ken toki e ni kepeken tenpo lili.
ona li wile toki e ni kepeken nimi lili
pona. same idea, but easier to understand.
taso ale li lukin nasa la, mi ken ala pini e toki ona.
mi wile sona e ni: seme li lon? mi toki e ona: o toki.
ts al*luns twmi. tani^miwiso~ni...
"taso ale lukin nasa tawa mi. tan ni la mi wile sona e ni..."

The thing I'm not getting across is that this is his condition "but no matter how crazy the story is, don't interrupt me" If it was in the first person I could make it a command "o pini ala e toki mi" but here is sounds as if I'm saying "I couldn't stop him from talking" which would make more sense given what we know of his agitated state.
what about: taso ona li wile e ni: ale li lukin nasa la, mi ken ala pini e toki ona.
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Post by jan-ante »

jan Josan wrote: with or without the 'tenpo suno wan ni la'? I think I want to establish that this one time was unusual.
without. to me, time is clear form the context.
original is "shy and touchy man" and I would like to keep it short or cut it out entirely.
kp@jnmt*iktwon - the best i can suggest
I seem to think of ijo more as an object than an event.
then we have nothing for event. but we need. shouldnt we use ijo?
taso ona li wile e ni: ale li lukin nasa la, mi ken ala pini e toki ona
tkon*lunstwmi^mikeaapi~tkon
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jan Josan
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Re: toki pi kalama pona suli

Post by jan Josan »

toki pi kalama pona suli
-jan Tomaso Lantopi

suno kama la mi mute li pine e lape. mi mute li tawa sewi tan supa. mi mute li pilin musi tan sona tu ni: mi moli ala; ijo ale pi tenpo suno ni li sama e ijo pi tenpo suno pini. tenpo suno wan la mi pilin sama ni. mi lukin e lupa tomo tawa ma li kepeken e sona lili. jan pona mi J li kama tawa tomo mi, li pana e kalama luka wawa lon selo pi lupa tomo.

ona li jan pi toki lili. tenpo mute la ona li pali, lon poka jan ante ala. ni li musi tawa mi: ona li kama jo e wawa mute. mi len. mi tu li toki e ijo lili. ni li nasa tawa mi: pilin ona li ante tan ike pakala tawa pona sewi. mi ken sona pona e ni: ijo nasa anu ijo ike li kama tawa ona. tenpo lili li tawa. mi kute e ona. ona li toki e ni: ona li jo e toki nasa. ona li wile toki e toki ni tawa mi. ona li ken toki e ni kepeken nimi lili. taso ona li wile e ni: toki ona li lukin nasa tawa mi la, mi ken ala pini e toki ona.

mi wile sona e ni: seme li lon? mi toki e ona: o toki.

ona li open e toki ona kepeken nimi ni: “tenpo suli pini la mi pali mute e musi suli. mi lukin e ijo lili ale, lon insa musi suli. kepeken nasin ni la, mi kama sona e ni en ni taso: jan musi li jo e ilo pali ale pi musi suli la, ona li pali ike. jan li sona pona e toki la, ona li pali ike, kepeken toki ni. jan li sona lili e toki ante la, ona li ken pali e musi pona en suli, kepeken toki ante ni. mi wile ala toki e ni: mi kama sona e sona ni kepeken nasin ike seme? taso, sona mi li pona. ni li lon: jan li sona ala e nimi ale la, jan li wile kepeken e sona sike, e sitelen ante. sina ken musi e ni: muse suli seme li kama? o weka e nimi pi toki suli en toki sama toki pi tenpo pini la, jan li kepeken ala e toki moli. tenpo ni la, musi suli le ken kama lon.”

jan J li pilin pona. ona li pilin e ni: sona ona li pona. ona li pine e toki li pini lili e oko sina. ona li weka e ike sina. taso ona li lukin e ni: mi sona ala e toki ona. ona li pana e a anpa, li toki wawa e nimi ni:
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