tomo tawa telo mi

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
aikidave
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tomo tawa telo mi

Post by aikidave »

tomo tawa telo li pona tawa mi. mi jo e tomo tawa telo Canoe.
tenpo suno ni la meli lili mi en mi li tawa tomo tawa telo mi.
mi mute li tawa e ona kepeken palisa pi kasi lipu.
pini pi tomo tawa telo mi li sama.
telo li weka ala tan tomo mi.
mi mute li lukin e waso walo tu.
seli li lon. kon li lili.

mi wile pali e tomo tawa telo kon.
mi pali e ona kepeken kasi en len.
len en ko wawa li pali e tomo tawa telo wawa.
tenpo kama la mi pali e ona poka tomo mi.
tenpo sike tu la mi pini e tomo tawa telo mi.
tawa kepeken wawa kon li pona tawa mi.
tomo tawa telo li ken poki e jan tu wan.
mi tawa e ona kepeken tomo tawa mi.
mi wile tawa lon telo poka ma tomo Pasen.

Comments and corrections please. I wanted to talk about the length of my sailboat (it's length is 15 feet), but I didn't know how to distinguish the measurement feet (luka) from 15 (luka luka luka). I guess I could say the sailboat will be the same size as my canoe.

I like boats. I have a canoe.
Today my daughter and I traveled in my canoe.
We move it using wooden paddles.
The ends of my boat are the same.
The lake is not far from my house.
We saw two white swans.
It was warm today and there was little wind.

I want to build a sailboat. I will make it using plywood and fiberglass cloth.
Figerglass and epoxy will make the boat strong.
In the future, I will build it next to my house.
It will take 2 years to finish building it.
I like sailing.
The boat can hold 3 people.
I will tow it behind my car.
I want to sail on the water next to Boston.
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jan Ote
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Re: tomo tawa telo mi

Post by jan Ote »

meli lili mi en mi li tawa tomo tawa telo mi.
My daughter and I go/travel to my boat.
meli lili mi en mi li tawa kepeken tomo tawa telo mi.
My daughter and I travel using my boat.

len en ko wawa li pali e tomo tawa telo wawa.
Can 'lon en ko wawa' really make anything? I suppose this a calque. Also adding 'wawa' at the end of ''tomo tawa telo' here, to express 'make stronger', seems to not work very well.
I would rather use something like:
tomo tawa ni li wawa tan ni: mi pali e ona kepeken len en eko wawa.
janKipo
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Re: tomo tawa telo mi

Post by janKipo »

It's 'len en ko wawa' "cloth and strong goo" which fits pretty well, taken literally (the fiberglass and epoxy are not completely apparent unless you read Small Boat Builders or whatever it is called nowadays).
'toma tawa telo wawa' just mean "a strong boat" (inter alia, of course) so the ingredients make a strong boat, again (aside from whether the ingredients can be the subject of 'pali') it works OK literally.
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jan Ote
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Re: tomo tawa telo mi

Post by jan Ote »

janKipo wrote:'toma tawa telo wawa' just mean "a strong boat" (inter alia, of course) so the ingredients make a strong boat
But akidave wants to express not "to make a strong boat", but "to make the boat strong", "to strenghten a boat (by using something)". There is a slight difference between them. 'pali e tomo tawa telo wawa' is for the first meaning, but not obviously for the second, intended one.
janKipo wrote:aside from whether the ingredients can be the subject of 'pali'
That's my point exactly: Can any inanimate objects make anything? They cannot do anything, they are inactive things. It's a man who makes a boat from them, making it strong this way. So 'len en ko wawa li pali' is a calque (from English?).
janKipo
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Re: tomo tawa telo mi

Post by janKipo »

so 'wawa e tomo tawa telo mi kepeken len e ko wawa' ? I'm not sure this is quite what aikidave wants to say either, but it goes directly to your points.
aikidave
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Re: tomo tawa telo mi

Post by aikidave »

So, what did I intend to say originally? :)
I was thinking that the cloth and epoxy, when they bond together are what makes the boat strong. Although separately, they are inanimate objects, when they are combined they react together to form a really strong structure.
I didn't think about whether or not inanimate objects can be the subject of 'pali'.
What I intended to say doesn't matter that much; because of your comments, I have learned more ways to say it!
That said, I like jan Ote's suggestion of 'tomo tawa ni li wawa tan ni: mi pali e ona kepeken len en eko wawa.'
aikidave wrote:mi mute li tawa e ona kepeken palisa pi kasi lipu.
I realize now that we couldn't move the boat using a bendable wooded stick.
Maybe I should say we used a wooden tool - ilo kasi ?
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jan Josan
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Re: tomo tawa telo mi

Post by jan Josan »

I might suggest kiwen instead of or in addition to wawa as a modifier, to emphasize it is material strength, rather than, say, a swift boat.

tomo tawa telo li pona mute! mama mije mi li tawa sama, poka sina. ona li tawa lon nasin telo Charles, lon ma tomo Pasen. o lukin e nasin ni. ken la sina li lukin e mama mi! :D
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jan Ote
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Re: tomo tawa telo mi

Post by jan Ote »

aikidave wrote:I was thinking that the cloth and epoxy, when they bond together are what makes the boat strong. Although separately, they are inanimate objects, when they are combined they react together to form a really strong structure.
Then -- a calque. It's easy to overlook the difference between some distinct meanings of a word in one's mother tongue. The verb 'to make' has got many meanings. Not all of them are covered by tp word 'pali':
  pali does mean: to work, do, make, manufacture, build, create
  but it does not mean a generally used: to cause
Cloth and epoxy make the boat strong = Because of them boat is strong ==> NOT pali
A beer makes happy = Beer arouses happiness ==> NOT pali
Heat makes gases expand = Heat causes that gases expand ==> NOT pali
A factory makes cars = A factory produces cars ==> pali
They made a big tower = They built a tower ==> pali
janKipo
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Re: tomo tawa telo mi

Post by janKipo »

This is turning into a fruitful exercise. So far, everything is quite right and we are getting into some deep matters.
But first, a minor point. 'poka' as a prep. means "with, accompanying;" to say "near to" you need 'lon poka' (I don't think this is the best way to go, perhaps, but it seems to be set for now).

Yes, 'kiwen' is a good addition is separate "strong" from "fast" in this case; other words would work in other circumstances.

The "faire faire" problem is as old as constructed languages, I think (I seem to remember an early version of E-o had it even, Loglan certainly did, though both of these corrected it later): the most generic verb "make/do" is also used for (among other things) "cause." Presumably, this is not the intention in tp, though it is common in several of the source languages. We have 'tan' which means "cause" as a noun, but doesn't work well as a verb. We have the process of making a transitive verb out of an adjective or a preposition, which works for those specific cases (see 'wawa e' in my note above). And we have 'pana' which works generally, usually with a subordinate "that" clause, i.e., 'ni' as object referring to a following sentence. 'pana' in the sense of "cause" does not seem to require a animate subject; its basic meaning is "emit," which inanimate things doe as well as (or better than) people. 'mi pana e ni: tomo tawa telo li wawa tan len en ko'
more or less.
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jan Josan
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Re: tomo tawa telo mi

Post by jan Josan »

janKipo wrote:But first, a minor point. 'poka' as a prep. means "with, accompanying;" to say "near to" you need 'lon poka' (I don't think this is the best way to go, perhaps, but it seems to be set for now).
This has never made sense to me until you explained it this way. thank you!
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