toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
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soweli Elepanto
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toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Postby soweli Elepanto » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:30 pm

jan lawa ma Oliki li kama utala li tawa kepenken soweli tawa Sewalo.
ona li lukin e jan pi sona mute li toki:
"jan sona o, toki e ni tawa mi:
tenpo kama la mi pilin pona ala pona? mi moli tan seme?"

jan sona li toki e ni:
"jan lawa o! sina suli li wawa.
sina pakala e jan ike sina ali. sina lawa e ma e telo.
jan ala li ken anpa e sina. taso sina moli tan soweli Sewalo sina ni.

soweli ni li pona tawa jan lawa Oliki. jan Oliki li musi ala.
taso ona li toki e ni tawa jan utala mute ona:
"jan mi o, pana e soweli tawa ante tawa mi!
mi wile ala kepeken soweli ni. taso mi wile e ni: ona li pilin pona!"

tenpo mute mute li kama.
jan Oliki en jan utala mute ona li moku li toki.
jan Oliki li toki: "soweli Sewalo mi li pilin pona ala pona?"
taso ona li kama sona e ni: tenpo monsi mute la soweli ni li moli...

jan lawa li pilin nasa li toki: "pakala! jan sona ni li ike li nasa! mi wile lukin e soweli moli!"
jan Oliki li tawa li lukin e soweli moli.
ona li kama tawa soweli moli ni.

a! akesi ike li lon soweli moli!
ona li moku e jan lawa.
jan lawa li moli nasin ni kin!

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jan Ote
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Re: toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Postby jan Ote » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:08 pm

pona a! Песнь о вещем Олеге (The Song of the Prophet Oleg). pona mute!
But it seems to me this text is not a translation of Pushkin's poem. It's just the same old legend written by you in toki pona, isn't it? Pushkin himselft took it from the Повесть временных лет chronicle (Tale of Bygone Years):

В год 6420 (912). [...] И пришла осень, и вспомнил Олег коня своего, которого прежде поставил кормить, решив никогда на него не садиться, Ибо спрашивал он волхвов и кудесников: "От чего я умру?"...

janKipo
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Re: toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Postby janKipo » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:51 pm

soweli Elepanto wrote:jan lawa ma Oliki li kama utala li tawa kepe[n]ken soweli tawa Sewalo. A beast named 'Sowalo' apparently from later, what is point of 'tawa'?
ona li lukin e jan pi sona mute li toki {e nimi ni}: (aesthetics)
"jan sona o, toki e ni tawa mi:
tenpo kama la mi pilin pona ala pona? mi moli tan seme?"

jan sona li toki e {nimi} ni:
"jan lawa o! sina suli li wawa.
sina pakala e jan ike sina ali. sina lawa e ma e telo.
jan ala li ken anpa e sina. taso sina moli tan soweli Sewalo sina ni. Maybe 'kama moli'? (aes)

soweli ni li pona tawa jan lawa Oliki. jan Oliki li musi ala.
taso ona li toki e ni tawa jan utala mute ona:
"jan mi o, pana e soweli tawa ante tawa mi! Almost certainly too complex, but I am not sure how to do exchanges ("I give you and you give me") I think 'esun' might be handy here but I don't know how it works exactly. 'o pana e soweli ante tawa mi. o weka e soweli mi' is about as good as I can see at the moment. Back to you for better ideas.
mi wile ala kepeken soweli ni. taso mi wile e ni: ona li pilin pona!"

tenpo mute mute li kama. Hmmm! I guess this is right but it feels strange. I want to say 'li pini' but what I am thinking of is probably dropping this sentence and attaching 'tenpo mute mute pini la' in front of the next.
jan Oliki en jan utala mute ona li moku li toki.
jan Oliki li toki: "soweli Sewalo mi li pilin pona ala pona?"
taso ona li kama sona e ni: tenpo monsi mute la soweli ni li moli... 'tenpo pini mute' (or 'tenpo mute pini') I think.

jan lawa li pilin nasa li toki: "pakala! jan sona ni li ike li nasa! mi wile lukin e soweli moli!"
jan Oliki li tawa li lukin e soweli moli.
ona li kama tawa soweli moli ni.

a! akesi ike li lon soweli moli!
ona li moku e jan lawa. Just 'bit' I suppose, but how to say that in tp? 'uta' as a transitive verb???
jan lawa li moli nasin ni kin!
'nasin' probably isn't a preposition (yet), so maybe 'kepeken nasin' or 'lon nasin' or 'tan nasin' or ...?

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jan Josan
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Re: toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Postby jan Josan » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:11 am

soweli Elepanto wrote:"jan mi o, pana e soweli tawa ante tawa mi!

Is he telling them to take it away from him? Maybe "o weka e soweli tan poka mi" ?

janKipo wrote:an lawa ma Oliki li kama utala li tawa kepe[n]ken soweli tawa Sewalo. A beast named 'Sowalo' apparently from later, what is point of 'tawa'?

animal of transport, ie a horse, right?

soweli Elepanto wrote:a! akesi ike li lon soweli moli!

maybe 'akesi palisa'?

janKipo wrote:ona li moku e jan lawa. Just 'bit' I suppose, but how to say that in tp? 'uta' as a transitive verb???

That's a tough one... I like your suggestion to use 'uta'... anything I come up with is way too long (ona li utala kepeken uta...li pana e ike tawa telo loje...)

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jan Ote
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Re: toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Postby jan Ote » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:28 am

soweli tawa Sewalo
Is 'Sewalo' to mean [EO:] 'ĉevalo' = [EN:] 'a horse'? If it's not a name, then 'soweli tawa' is sufficient.
ona li moku e jan lawa.
ona li moku lili e jan lawa [li pana e telo moli].
It bites the prince [and emits a venom].
See http://bknight0.myweb.uga.edu/toki/lesson/lesson14.html, "Practice".

janKipo
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Re: toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Postby janKipo » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:03 pm

josankapo
soweli Elepanto wrote:a! akesi ike li lon soweli moli!
maybe 'akesi palisa'?

'akesi linja' also used


josankapo
janKipo wrote:an lawa ma Oliki li kama utala li tawa kepe[n]ken soweli tawa Sewalo. A beast named 'Sowalo' apparently from later, what is point of 'tawa'?
animal of transport, ie a horse, right?

OOh, right. ('tawa' does too much, especially back at the prep position.)

jan Ote
soweli Elepanto
soweli tawa Sewalo
Is 'Sewalo' to mean [EO:] 'ĉevalo' = [EN:] 'a horse'? If it's not a name, then 'soweli tawa' is sufficient.

Damn! I never thought of that possibility. (in spite of soweli Elepanto rather than, say, soweli pi nena linja)


jan ote
soweli Elepanto
ona li moku e jan lawa.
ona li moku lili e jan lawa [li pana e telo moli].
It bites the prince [and emits a venom].
See http://bknight0.myweb.uga.edu/toki/lesson/lesson14.html, "Practice".

Interesting; I wonder why it is not in the dictionary (yet)

jan-ante
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Re: toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Postby jan-ante » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:31 pm

soweli Elepanto wrote:jan lawa ma Oliki li kama utala li tawa kepenken soweli tawa Sewalo.

kama utala e jan pi ma Khazaria

ona li lukin e jan pi sona mute
jan sona li kama tawa sinpin ona

"jan sona o, toki e ni tawa mi:
tenpo kama la mi pilin pona ala pona? mi moli tan seme?"


taso ona li toki e ni tawa jan utala mute ona

отроки-други -jan pali pona?

jan mi o, pana e soweli tawa ante tawa mi!
...tawa ma kasi mi (В мой луг под уздцы отведите)

tenpo mute mute li kama.
li tawa

taso ona li kama sona e ni: tenpo monsi mute la soweli ni li moli...
tenpo pini mute

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Re: toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Postby jan-ante » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:36 pm

jan Ote wrote:(The Song of the Prophet Oleg)
not prophet. вещий - имеющий много вещей - jan pi ijo mute (allegedly robbered in constantinopolis. but this is a false claim. they never took it over)

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jan Ote
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Re: toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Postby jan Ote » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:45 am

jan-ante wrote:
jan Ote wrote:(The Song of the Prophet Oleg)
not prophet. вещий - имеющий много вещей - jan pi ijo mute
"The Prophet Oleg", or "the Wise Oleg" are common translations into English. Russian sources confirm this meaning:
Повесть временных лет wrote:И прозвали Олега Вещим, так как были люди язычниками и непросвещенными.

Wikipedia: Олег Вещий wrote:В летописи приводится его прозвище Вещий, то есть знающий будущее, провидящий будущее.

Вещий — происх. от слова «ведающий», родств. слова «вещун», «ведьма» См. напр. Словарь М. Фасмера [1]

Этимологический словарь Фасмера wrote:ВЕЩИЙ, вещая, вещее (книжн. поэт. устар.). Знающий или предсказывающий будущее, пророческий. Отверзлись вещие зеницы. Пушкин. Вещий сон.

See a very good article in:
Словарь-справочник "Слова о полку Игореве": вещий - вѣщии

soweli Elepanto
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Re: toki nasa "jan lawa Oliki" pi jan Pusikin.

Postby soweli Elepanto » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:53 am

soweli Elepanto wrote:ona li lukin e jan pi sona mute li toki:

janKipo wrote:ona li lukin e jan pi sona mute li toki {e nimi ni}: (aesthetics)

Is direct speech is not allowed or bad-sounded without "e ni" or "e nimi ni"? But I feel that too much of "e (nimi) ni" make the text too uniform. Dont't it? By the way: What is the difference between "e ni" and "e nimi ni"?

soweli Elepanto wrote:jan mi o, pana e soweli tawa ante tawa mi!

janKipo wrote:Almost certainly too complex, but I am not sure how to do exchanges ("I give you and you give me") I think 'esun' might be handy here but I don't know how it works exactly. 'o pana e soweli ante tawa mi. o weka e soweli mi' is about as good as I can see at the moment. Back to you for better ideas.

I'd explain, that "exchange", moreover "esun = market, shopping etc." are not appropriate here. The prince just ordered his soldiers give him another horse.

soweli Elepanto wrote:jan lawa ma Oliki li kama utala <...>

jan-ante wrote:kama utala e jan pi ma Khazaria

Yes he was! But it is "detail" -> "ike" :D

I have questions to expert tokiponists: What is a difference between "tenpo monsi" and "tenpo pini"?
Is "tenpo monsi mute" appropriate at all for "long ago" ?


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