jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

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janKipo
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:15 pm

ona li ala jan ike tawa sina "They are evilly human nothings to you" (zombies?) '...li jan ike ala tawa...'

ja[k]n

o kama jan sama tawa mi Actually clearer without 'tawa' which makes it look like "Come to me. my brother." though invalidly.

Nice -- but I wish it was easier to kiss.

jan-ante
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:18 pm

jak Ote wrote: jan mute li kulupu lon poka ona

jan mute li kulupu poka ona ?? nm"ln"*ik twtkni

ona li toki e ni: "jan ni
ona li jE anu jS anu jan mute? ona li jan mute la o kk e nimi "li" lon tenpo tu: jan mute li kulupu li toki e ni:

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:16 am

jan-ante wrote:
jak Ote wrote: jan mute li kulupu lon poka ona

jan mute li kulupu poka ona ?? nm"ln"*ik twtkni
nimi "lon" li ike tawa toki ni tan seme? jan Kipo li toki e ni:
jan Kipo wrote:suno pi jan sewi An li anpa wawa LON poka mi
"poka mi" alone means "with me"

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:26 am

So it goes... The full revised text, after your corrections, with some additional minor changes (i.e. a few "poka soweli" added):

jan Kikamesi. jan Enkitu li kama
jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku
tomo Uluku li lon. sinpin pi ma tomo Uluku ni li sewi li suli. sinpin ni li kiwen. tomo Enana li tomo pi jan sewi meli Inana. sinpin pi tomo Enana li kiwen. sinpin ni li walo sama suno. o tawa tomo pi jan sewi Inana! o lukin! jan ante li pali ala e tomo sama. jan lawa ante li pali ala e tomo sama. jan seme li kama pali e ijo ali ni? jan Kikamesili li jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku. ona li kama pali e tomo sewi ni e sinpin ni. ona li suli. jan Kikamesi li utala sama soweli wawa. ona li pakala e sinpin kiwen. ona li lawa e kulupu pi jan utala ona. ona li jan lawa. jan seme li ken sama e ona? jan seme ken toki e ni: "mi jan lawa"?

meli sewi Ninsun en jan lawa Lukapanta li mama ona. jan Kikamesi li suli li pona lukin. ona li wawa li sama jan sewi. jan ala li wile utala e ona.

jan pi ma tomo Uluku li pilin ike tawa jan Kikamesi. jan li tawa tomo pi jan sewi li toki e ni: "jan sewi o! jan Kikamesi li suli li sona. nimi ona li suli li wawa. jan Kikamesi li kulupu e mije. ona li lawa e jan ni tawa utala. mama mute li pilin ike tan ni. jan Kikamesi li jan lawa pona ala pona? jan Kikamesi li kama jo e meli li unpa e ona. jan mute li pana e telo oko tan ni. jan Kikamesi li jan lawa pona ala pona?".

jan soweli Enkitu
jan sewi li kute e ni. jan sewi An li lawa e jan sewi. ona li toki tawa mama sewi Alulu li toki e ni: "tenpo pini la sina pali e jan. o pali e jan wawa sin. o pali e jan pi sama jan Kikamesi. mi wile e ni: ona li utala e jan Kikamesi. tan ni la jan pi ma tomo Uluku li ken pilin ike ala".

mama sewi Alulu li telo e luka ona. ona li kama jo e ko pi ma telo li pana e ijo ni tawa ma supa. tan ni la jan Enkitu li kama lon. jan Enkitu li suli li wawa. sijelo ona li jo e linja mute. ona li moku poka soweli. ona en soweli li moku e kasi anpa. ona en soweli li moku e telo. jan Enkitu li jan soweli. ona li sona ala e ilo e tomo e jan ante.

jan pi utala soweli
jan pi utala soweli li lon ma ni. ona li pali e lupa ma suli. soweli li tawa insa lupa. nasin ni la jan ni li ken kama jo e soweli. jan li pali kin e ilo pi kama jo. ona li kama jo e soweli li moli e ona. taso jan soweli Enkitu li pakala lupa ni en ilo ni. ona li kama e ni: soweli li ken tawa weka.

jan pi utala soweli li lukin e jan soweli Enkitu wawa li pilin ike li pilin wawa ala. ona li tawa weka li tawa mama ona. jan pi utala soweli li toki e ni: "mama o, jan soweli li kama tan ma nena. ona li suli li wawa. jan ala li wawa sama ona. mi pilin ike. ona li moku e kasi anpa poka soweli. ona li moku e telo poka soweli. tenpo ali la ona li pakala lupa ma mi en ilo mi. mi ken ala kama jo e soweli tan ona".

mama li toki e ni: "jan lili mi o, jan Kikamesi li lon ma tomo Uluku. jan ala li wawa sama ona. o tawa! o kama tawa ma tomo Uluku. o toki pi jan wawa ni tawa jan Kikamesi. jan Kikamesi li pana e jan unpa Sanka tawa sina. tenpo kama la jan Sanka li anpa e jan soweli ni kepeken unpa".

jan pi utala soweli li kama tawa ma tomo Uluku. ona li toki tawa jan Kikamesi e ni ali. jan Kikamesi li toki tawa ona li toki e ni: "jan pi utala soweli o kama jo e meli unpa Sanka pi tomo pi jan sewi. tenpo kama la ona li kepeken nasin meli tawa jan soweli ni. tenpo lili la soweli pi jan ni li tawa weka tan ona".

meli pi tomo pi jan sewi
jan pi utala soweli en jan Sanka li tawa weka. tenpo suno mute lili la ona li kama tawa ma supa. ona li awen. tenpo suno sin la soweli en jan soweli Enkitu li kama. jan soweli Enkitu li moku e telo e kasi anpa poka soweli. telo en kasi anpa li pona tawa ona.

jan Sanka li lukin e jan soweli Enkitu li kama tawa ona. jan Sanka li weka e len. ona li pilin e luka pi jan soweli Enkitu. meli Sanka li unpa e mije Enkitu. mije Enkitu li unpa e meli Sanka. tenpo suno mute la ona li unpa. tenpo pimejo mute la ona li unpa. ona li pini unpa la jan Enkitu li lukin tawa soweli. taso soweli li pilin ike tawa ona. tan ni la ona li tawa weka. jan Enkitu li wile kama tawa soweli. taso ona li pilin wawa ala. ona li ken ala tawa wawa.

jan Enkitu li pilin e ni: ona li ken sona. jan Enkitu li pilin e ni: "mi ken sona. mi pilin. mi jan". ona li kama tawa jan Sanka li anpa. ona li lukin e sinpin jan Sanka li kute.

jan Sanka li toki tawa jan Enkitu. ona li toki e ni: "jan Enkitu o! sina sama jan sewi. sina tawa poka soweli tan seme? o kama".

jan Enkitu
jan Sanka li tu e len ona. ona li len e jan Enkitu kepeken len wan. jan Sanka li toki e ni: "o kama poka mi. o kama tawa jan".

ona li tawa tomo pi jan lawa soweli. jan lawa soweli mute li kepeken li lukin e jan Enkitu li toki e ni: "ona li suli sama jan Kikamesi. ona li wawa sama suno pi jan sewi An". ona li pana e pan e telo nasa jelo. jan Enkitu li moku ala. ona li lukin wawa taso. tenpo ala la ona li lukin e pan e telo nasa. jan Sanka li toki ni: "jan Ekitu o moku e moku ni. o moku e telo ni. ni li nasin jan". jan Enkitu li moku e pan mute. ona li moku e telo nasa jelo mute. ona li pilin pona mute. ona li telo e sijelo ona. ona li len. jan Enkitu li jan kin. jan lawa soweli li lape la jan Enkitu li lape ala. ona li kama jo e ilo utala li utala e soweli ike. jan lawa soweli li ken lape pona.

lape pi jan Kikamesi
jan Kikamesi li lape li lukin e lukin lape. ona li pini lape li tawa mama meli. jan Kikamesi li toki e ni: "mama o! tenpo pimeja la mi lape li lukin e ni: mi lukin e suno lili mute lon sewi mi. suno pi jan sewi An li anpa poka mi. mi wile tawa sewi e ona. taso mi ken ala tawa e ona. jan pi ma tomo Uluku li kulupu li sike e suno ni. mi anpa tawa ona sama anpa tawa meli mi. mi tawa e ona tawa sina tawa e ni: sina ken sona e ni: mi tu sama ala sama.

mama pi jan Kikamesi li sona e ali. jan Nintu li sona e ali. ona li sona e lukin lape ni li toki e ni: "mije lili mi o! lukin lape sina li ni: tenpo kama la jan wawa li kama tawa sina. ona li wawa sama suno pi jan sewi An. tenpo kama la ona li pona tawa sina. ona li pana e pona tawa sina li utala e jan ike sina. ona li jan sama sina. sina olin e ona sama meli olin. mije lili o! lukin lape sina li pona li suli".

jan mije olin
jan Enkitu li tawa e oko li lukin e ni: jan mije li tawa. jan Enkitu li toki e ni: "jan Sanka o, mi wile e ni: jan ni li tawa weka. tan seme la ona li tawa?". jan Sanka li toki e ni: "jan ante o, sina tawa tan seme? sina lukin sama jan pi pilin ike. sina pilin ike tan seme?"

jan mije li toki tawa jan Enkitu li toki e toki ni: "tenpo lili kama la mi wan poka meli olin mi. taso jan Kikamesi li jan lawa. a! ona li wile unpa e olin mi. tenpo pimeja wan la jan Kikamesi li unpa e olin mi. nasin pi kulupu pi jan sewi li ni: tenpo pimeja wan la jan lawa li ken unpa e meli pi jan ante".

jan Enkitu li pilin ike wawa tan toki pi jan ni. ona li toki e ni: "mi tawa ma tomo Uluku! jan Kikamesi li unpa ala e meli sina".

jan Enkitu en jan Sonka li kama tawa ma tomo Uluku.

utala
jan Enkitu li tawa lon nasin pi ma tomo Uluku. jan Sanka li tawa lon monsi ona. jan Enkitu li lon supa pi ma tomo. jan mute li kulupu lon poka ona li toki e ni: "jan ni li tawa tan ma nena. ona li wawa. ona li suli sama jan Kikamesi". jan Enkitu li kama tawa tomo pi jan olin. ona li awen lon sinpin pi lupa pi tomo ni. ona li awen noka ona lon sinpin pi tomo ni.

jan Kikamesi li kama. taso ona li ken ala kama tawa insa tomo. ona li pilin ike wawa. jan Kikamesi li kama utala e jan Enkitu. jan Enkitu li utala e jan Kikamesi. ona tu li utala. poka pi lupa tomo li tawa! ona li utala wawa. poka pi lupa tomo li pakala! ona li utala sama soweli wawa. sinpin tomo li tawa!

jan sama tu
jan Kikamesi li awen e ike wawa ona li pini utala. jan Enkitu li toki tawa ona li toki e ni: "jan Kikamesi o! jan ala li sama sina. sina wawa sama jan sewi. mama sewi sina li kama e ni: sina wawa. jan sewi Enli li kama e ni: sina jan lawa. jan Kikamesi o, pini pali e ike tawa jan pi ma tomo Uluku. ona li jan ike ala tawa sina. sina jan lawa pi jan ni".

jak Kikamesi li toki e ni: "toki sina li sona li pona. sina suli li wawa. sina taso ken toki e ni: sina suli sama mi. jan ante ala ken toki e ni. o jan sama tawa mi!". jan Enkitu li toki tawa jan Kikamesi li toki e ni: "sina jan sama mi kin!". jan Enkitu li pilin e uta pi jan Kikamesi kepeken uta ona. jan Kikamesi li pilin e uta pi jan Enkitu kepeken uta ona. ona tu li kama jan sama kin.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:38 pm

pona mute. sitele sina li pona tawa mi. mi pilin pona tan ni: sina sitelen pona kepeken toki pona.

jan Kikamesi[li] li jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku
mama mute li pilin ike tan ni. 'tan ni la mama mute li pilin ike to make clearer the referent of 'ni'
jan mute li pana e telo oko tan ni. ditto -- this is aesthetics, not grammar
li pana e ijo ni tawa ma supa. or li tawa ma supa e ijo ni ('ko ni' would be clearer)
nasin ni la jan ni li ken kama jo e soweli I like 'nasin ni la' but I can imagine a case being made for 'tan nasin ni' or 'lon nasin ni' or some such
o toki pi jan wawa ni tawa jan Kikamesi 'toki pi' is as good a shot at "talk about" as any, but not the only candidate.
ona li toki tawa jan Kikamesi e ni ali prep phrase at end! (maybe grammar)
tenpo kama la ona li kepeken E nasin meli tawa jan soweli ni
tenpo suno mute lili la ona li kama tawa ma supa just to note the problem with the time phrase: I suppose you mean "after many days" maybe 'pini at the end.
tenpo suno mute la ona li unpa. Now "for many days" We need a ruling.
ona li ken ala tawa wawa. Interesting! I might prefer 'kama' to 'tawa' (which is overworked
ona li tawa tomo pi jan lawa soweli. jan lawa soweli mute ((jl)s) "beastly leader' or "lead human of beasts" or (j(ls)) "beast-leading man' (shepherd, say) (If I have been through all this before, note that I have no short-term memory) I think the second has to be at least ((jl)PI (sm))
suno pi jan sewi An li anpa LON poka mi "beside" not "with"
mi anpa tawa ona sama anpa tawa meli mi I *think* this has to be split: 'mi anpa tawa ona sama ni: mi anpa tawa meli mi'
mi tu sama ala sama.? "Do I divide similarly or not"? ?
wan poka meli olin mi maybe just 'wan e meli'
tenpo pimeja wan la Looks like "on one night" rather than"on wedding night" Don't know a patch.
jan ni li tawa tan ma nena I would have said 'kama' (aesthetics)
sina taso LI ken toki e ni (I think)
o jan sama tawa mi! Problem about prep phrases modifying noun phrases. I see the double prep here to avoid saying 'jan sama' too soon, but it is iffy.

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jan Ote
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:51 am

Thank you. It wouldn't be possible without your help.

janKipo wrote:ona li ken ala tawa wawa. Interesting! I might prefer 'kama' to 'tawa' (which is overworked
I would rather keep it, because "tawa" is about general movement, ability to move.

janKipo wrote:ona li tawa tomo pi jan lawa soweli. jan lawa soweli mute ((jl)s) "beastly leader' or "lead human of beasts" or (j(ls)) "beast-leading man' (shepherd, say) (If I have been through all this before, note that I have no short-term memory) I think the second has to be at least ((jl)PI (sm))
When I worked on it I noticed that:
a shepherd = a human-leader of animals
(jan lawa) = a leader (idiomatic!)
((jan lawa) soweli) = a leader of animals OR an animal leader -- no way to distinguish?
To avoid the second meaning we can use a trick 'jan lawa pi soweli mute' but it seems to be too long.
If ''jan lawa soweli" is a shepherd, then if I want to emphasize that 'many shepherds' said something I have to use: 'jan lawa soweli mute'. I have no other way to do it.

Now, a trick with 'a shepherd'= 'jan lawa pi soweli mute' has the following plural form:
'(jan lawa pi soweli mute) mute', i.e. 'jan lawa pi soweli mute mute' =?= "leader of many many animals"

On the other hand: if we use 'jan pi lawa soweli' then the plural form would be: 'jan pi lawa soweli mute'. Then the rule of grouping says that it should be read as (human (lead animal many)) = 'a human leader of many animals'...

janKipo wrote:mi tu sama ala sama.? "Do I divide similarly or not"? ?
Unfortunatelly. Is there any unambigous method of sayin "are we two same/similar or not?"

janKipo wrote:tenpo pimeja wan la Looks like "on one night" rather than"on wedding night" Don't know a patch.
Well, context suggests that it is this one night. Anyway, a ruler had a right to unpa during one night. He cannot unpa a married woman everyday, but could do it one time. Putting aside question of virginity, it's more or less the same.

janKipo wrote:sina taso LI ken toki e ni (I think)
Yes, indeed.

janKipo wrote:o jan sama tawa mi! Problem about prep phrases modifying noun phrases. I see the double prep here to avoid saying 'jan sama' too soon, but it is iffy.
I found that there is no 'real' (well...), universal "to be" in toki pona. The best solution would be "Oh, be a brother to me!", my next choice is "be my brother!". But how to express "o, be this or that!"? When there is no "be" in affirmative sentence "you ARE my brother", "sina [] jan sama mi".

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:22 am

jak Ote wrote:Thank you. It wouldn't be possible without your help.
Thank you for the interesting material (and for your thanks, too).

janKipo wrote:ona li ken ala tawa wawa. Interesting! I might prefer 'kama' to 'tawa' (which is overworked
I would rather keep it, because "tawa" is about general movement, ability to move.
I think I misread it as "They cannot get strong" rather than "they cannot move strongly."

janKipo wrote:ona li tawa tomo pi jan lawa soweli. jan lawa soweli mute ((jl)s) "beastly leader' or "lead human of beasts" or (j(ls)) "beast-leading man' (shepherd, say) (If I have been through all this before, note that I have no short-term memory) I think the second has to be at least ((jl)PI (sm))
When I worked on it I noticed that:
a shepherd = a human-leader of animals
(jan lawa) = a leader (idiomatic!)
((jan lawa) soweli) = a leader of animals OR an animal leader -- no way to distinguish?

What I was trying to do with the regrouping 'jan pi lawa soweli' "man who leads beasts" v. 'jan lawa soweli' "beastly leader" (a step up from 'jan soweli') Of course the latter could also mean the same as the former, since the relation between core and modifier is not definite.

To avoid the second meaning we can use a trick 'jan lawa pi soweli mute' but it seems to be too long.
If ''jan lawa soweli" is a shepherd, then if I want to emphasize that 'many shepherds' said something I have to use: 'jan lawa soweli mute'. I have no other way to do it.

Now, a trick with 'a shepherd'= 'jan lawa pi soweli mute' has the following plural form:
'(jan lawa pi soweli mute) mute', i.e. 'jan lawa pi soweli mute mute' =?= "leader of many many animals"

On the other hand: if we use 'jan pi lawa soweli' then the plural form would be: 'jan pi lawa soweli mute'. Then the rule of grouping says that it should be read as (human (lead animal many)) = 'a human leader of many animals'...

Yeah, the right end of the right grouping is undefined, so 'jan pi lawa soweli mute' can mean either. When I am conscious of the problem, I tend to use 'jan mute pi lawa soweli mute: still ambiguous but more likely to give the right reading. I think.

janKipo wrote:mi tu sama ala sama.? "Do I divide similarly or not"? ?
Unfortunatelly. Is there any unambigous method of sayin "are we two same/similar or not?"

'mi tu li sama ala sama ('li' is only dropped when 'mi' or 'sina' is the whole of the subject.)

janKipo wrote:tenpo pimeja wan la Looks like "on one night" rather than"on wedding night" Don't know a patch.
Well, context suggests that it is this one night. Anyway, a ruler had a right to unpa during one night. He cannot unpa a married woman everyday, but could do it one time. Putting aside question of virginity, it's more or less the same.

True, but it would be nice to be able to make the distinction clearly and easily.

janKipo wrote:sina taso LI ken toki e ni (I think)
Yes, indeed.

janKipo wrote:o jan sama tawa mi! Problem about prep phrases modifying noun phrases. I see the double prep here to avoid saying 'jan sama' too soon, but it is iffy.
I found that there is no 'real' (well...), universal "to be" in toki pona. The best solution would be "Oh, be a brother to me!", my next choice is "be my brother!". But how to express "o, be this or that!"? When there is no "be" in affirmative sentence "you ARE my brother", "sina [] jan sama mi".


Yes, there is no "to be" copula in tp, the noun/adjective alone carries whatever force the (mostly vacuous) verb would have. The optative use you want is just the imperative with the subject in place: 'o sina jan sama mi' Even the imperative will work, since tp imperatives are not imperious 'o jan sama mi' (Notice this doesn't flopover into a mere vocative, since tp put that marker after the noun: 'jan sama mi o')

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:11 pm

janKipo wrote:The optative use you want is just the imperative with the subject in place: 'o sina jan sama mi' Even the imperative will work, since tp imperatives are not imperious 'o jan sama mi'
Yes, the implicit subject for imperative is 'sina', so the subject is not necessary. But these both forms look... strange. The meaning seems to be not obvious, that's why I was trying to find some other solution. You make me sure there is no other way.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:08 pm

Well, the context suggests that this is a change of state so 'o sina kama jan sama mi' might cover it (or the imperative form, of course) "Would that you become my brother" Then you can get the finale 'ona tu li jan sama'

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:04 pm

jak Ote wrote:
jan Kipo wrote:suno pi jan sewi An li anpa wawa LON poka mi
"poka mi" alone means "with me"

i thought this is what you mean: many poelple gather(ed) with him

If ''jan lawa soweli" is a shepherd...

pn@ijns*ni: lw*wasj jnlw*wa@kpjn. but the shepherd is not a member of soweli society, although the reader might imply this. consider jan pi lukin tawa soweli or jan wawa @kpow to stress thet he is in fact an overseer or slave-driver


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