jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
janKipo
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:47 am

As Chuang tzu says (after dreaming of being a butterfly)"I no longer know whether I am Chuang Chou dreaming of being a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming of being Chuang Chou" tp philosophy in action. But I think that it is still OK to say 'mi lukin e lukin(sitelen/toki/...) lape' for "I saw/had a dream"

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:30 am

jak Ote wrote:
RU: ja videl son
PL: widziałem sen
EN: I have seen a dream

in polish and russian "sleeping" and "dream" is the same word. using this calque in tp, mi lukin e lape. but i am not sure if our english-speaking colleagues will accept this calque. if you want to distinguish between sleep(ing) and dream, the passive form is the best

But back to toki pona: now I realize, that according to tp philosophy (see: lesson 6 from the old manual) we cannot say "to see a dream". Sleeping and dreaming is a kind of moving to another, private reality.
...
But he can say "Right, I slept and that's why I couldn't hear you. Because I wasn't here. I was in the dream [reality]". So you are some way right, jan-Ante, that he cannot "see a dream".
Does it make sense?
in some way i am right, in some way i am wrong. 君子貞而不諒 - благородный муж тверд, но не упрям. so perhaps we should not be too much stubborn about tp philosophy

janKipo
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:16 pm

Well, this English speaking colleague probably wouldn't accept the calque, had he known it was one. But then, insisting that they have different words is probably a calque (so to speak) of English (and most European languages I can think of - Romance and Germanic). This sort of thing will be more and more a problem as speakers of more -- and more different -- languages come in: a phrase that makes perfect sense from one language's point of view is totally opaque from another's. We have to find a tp medium here (aside from the suggestion to not talk about things that require any sort of complication -- but that is language dependent too). For the moment, I think tp probably wants to distinguish sleep from dreams. But, once the warning is out, 'mi lukin e lape' might make perfectly good sense (as it does to me, now).

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:14 pm

janKipo wrote:This sort of thing will be more and more a problem as speakers of more -- and more different -- languages come in: a phrase that makes perfect sense from one language's point of view is totally opaque from another's.

o yes. e.g., "american dream". it is normally translated as "amerikanskaya mechta". "mechta" is somethisg you wish very much in your heart. it is not what you see while sleeping. to me, it was always strange how do they use the same word for such a different things.
in fact, there is a russian word for "sleeping dream" - snovidenie, but it is a medical term, normal people do not use it.

janKipo
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:27 pm

Brilliant example of the problem. I might have tped it as 'wile pi jan Mewika' (certainly would have after this) but I might have gone off on a tangent, maybe not 'lape' (or maybe), but something about ideals and the like (pilin sewi?).

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jan Ote
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:25 pm

Next part:

... jan Enkitu en jan Sonka li kama tawa ma tomo Uluku.

utala
jan Enkitu li tawa nasin pi ma tomo Uluku. jan Sanka li tawa lon monsi ona. jan Enkitu li lon supa pi ma tomo. jan mute li kulupu lon poka ona. ona li toki e ni: "jan ni li tawa tan ma nena. ona li wawa. ona li suli sama jan Kikamesi". jan Enkitu li kama tawa tomo pi jan olin. ona li awen lon sinpin pi lupa tomo ni. ona li awen noka ona lon sinpin pi tomo ni.

jan Kikamesi li kama. taso ona li ken ala kama tawa insa tomo. ona li pilin ike wawa. jan Kikamesi li kama utala e jan Enkitu. jan Enkitu li utala e jan Kikamesi. ona tu li utala. poka pi lupa tomo li tawa! ona li utala wawa. poka pi lupa tomo li pakala! ona li utala sama soweli wawa. sinpin tomo li tawa!

janKipo
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:41 pm

jan Enkitu li tawa nasin pi ma tomo Uluku. Probably 'lon nasin pi..." He travels ON the road, not TO the road.

ona li awen lon sinpin pi lupa tomo ni Probably 'lupa pi tomo ni' (although the difference between "this house-door} and "the door of this house" is not great)

ona li awen E (?)noka ona lon sinpin pi tomo ni.

poka pi lupa tomo li tawa Just moves or is blown away? ('tawa weka' or even 'ona tu li weka e poka') Why "side"? Of course, 'lupa' is strictly the doorway, not the obstruction in it, so something is needed and I am not sure what.

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jan Ote
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:19 pm

janKipo wrote:Probably 'lon nasin pi..." He travels ON the road, not TO the road.
janKipo wrote:ona li awen lon sinpin pi lupa tomo ni Probably 'lupa pi tomo ni'
Right.
janKipo wrote:ona li awen E (?)noka ona lon sinpin pi tomo ni.
Yes, "li awen e noka". He stopped his legs, blocking a doorway.
janKipo wrote:poka pi lupa tomo li tawa Just moves or is blown away? ('tawa weka' or even 'ona tu li weka e poka') Why "side"? Of course, 'lupa' is strictly the doorway, not the obstruction in it, so something is needed and I am not sure what.
It's a "side of door", doorpost, the frame of the door
ona tu li utala. poka pi lupa tomo li tawa! -- the door-frame is shakeing
ona li utala wawa. poka pi lupa tomo li pakala! -- the door-frame is broken
ona li utala sama soweli wawa. sinpin tomo li tawa! -- the wall is shakeing

janKipo
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:07 pm

Nice! Sorry I missed the progression. As the fight goes on, will the trembling walls anpa?

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jan Ote
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:26 pm

No, we cannot allow them to destroy the house.

... ona li utala sama soweli wawa. sinpin tomo li tawa!

jan sama tu
jan Kikamesi li awen e ike wawa ona li pini utala. jan Enkitu li toki tawa ona li toki e ni: "jan Kikamesi o! jan ala li sama sina. sina wawa sama jan sewi. mama sewi sina li kama e ni: sina wawa. jan sewi Enli li kama e ni: sina jan lawa. jan Kikamesi o, pini pali e ike tawa jan pi ma tomo Uluku. ona li ala jan ike tawa sina. sina jan lawa pi jan ni".

jak Kikamesi li toki e ni: "toki sina li sona li pona. sina suli li wawa. sina taso ken toki e ni: sina suli sama mi. jan ante ala ken toki e ni. o kama jan sama tawa mi!". jan Enkitu li toki tawa jan Kikamesi li toki e ni: "sina jan sama mi kin!". jan Enkitu li pilin e uta pi jan Kikamesi kepeken uta ona. jan Kikamesi li pilin e uta pi jan Enkitu kepeken uta ona. ona tu li kama jan sama kin.


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