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Toki Pona Forums • jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku - Page 4
Page 4 of 8

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:26 am
by jan Ote

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:03 am
by jan-ante

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:26 am
by jan Ote

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:09 am
by janKipo
jan Sanka o, mi wile jan ni li tawa weka. No can do, cant have a subordinate clause in tp. This says "I thusly manfully want and go away" Need 'mi wile e ni: jan ni li tawa weka.

jan mije li tawa Probably 'kama' is better. This just means "A man is moving" (Maybe even 'kama poka' "approach" but 'kama' is not a tawa class verb, so this might have to be th -- unacceptable-- 'kama tawa poka'

sina lukin sama jan pilin ike. Probably 'jan pi pilin ike' "man of bad feelings" rather than "bad man of feelings"

tenpo pimeja wan la jan lawa LI ken unpa e mije pi jan ante". Surely 'meli pi jan ante' (although I gather that homosexual marriages were OK in the good old days) Ditto jan Kikamesi li unpa ala e mije sina

jan Kikamesi li lukin e lape. ? No, I don't think so. This is "G sees a sleeper" or some such.

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:29 pm
by jan-ante

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:37 am
by jan Ote

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:16 am
by jan Ote

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:57 pm
by janKipo
janKipo wrote:jan mije li tawa Probably 'kama' is better. This just means "A man is moving"

A man has been walking. It's not he was approaching Enkidu, just walking around nearby. In a way annoying to Enkidu.

Ooops! Sorry!

janKipo wrote:tenpo pimeja wan la jan lawa LI ken unpa e mije pi jan ante". Surely 'meli pi jan ante'

Ooops! It's high time I found mnemonics for mije/meli.

Well, 'meli' is "Mary" and 'mije' is like 'mi' (won't help females, alas)

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:28 pm
by jan-ante

Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:21 pm
by janKipo
jak Ote wrote: a2) jan Kikamesi li lape li lukin -- Gilgamesh was sleeping and looking/seeing.

i like this because in this construction the reader would imply the causative relationship between lape and lukin. it is easy to get the meaning because the both are predicates. "lukin lape" is also good as a complex verb, but (to me) requires a little bit more time to analyse

I don't see a causal connection between the two in 'li lape li lukin,' merely something like simultaneity. But I do think its a good way to deal with dreams where the content gets mentioned somehow. 'lukin lape' (and the others) do take a minute and may get misread (see my bollixes often above and elsewhere on these fora), but once established as an idiom, it goes smoothly.

I don't see seeing a dream as clearly passive in an abstract sense: the agent is the seer, the dream the seen -- "a dream was seen" actually seems odd to me (not to criticize Russian, mind you; every language has quirks of grammar that make no logical sense -- we are just starting to learn tp's) even with "by me" thrown in.
I'm not too sure that the absence of passive forms is really a part of tp philosophy (really Sonja's philosophy which shares some features with her language) or is just a matter of keeping the grammar as simple as possible (which is, of course, one of those common features).