jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
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jan Ote
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:26 am

janKipo wrote:
janOte wrote:If it's all right I would prefer just "lukin lape" for "seeing a dream, dreaming". Please don't hesitate to point out in the text where it can't be used.
I think it is alright and seems to me the best of the lot "sleep sights"
So
  jan Kikamesi li lukin e lukin lape. ?
Or maybe just:
  jan Kikamesi li lukin e lape. ?

janKipo wrote:but more passively, "mi pini lape" "I awoke," no other action required.
Ahah!

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:03 am

jak Ote wrote: So
  jan Kikamesi li lukin e lukin lape. ?
Or maybe just:
  jan Kikamesi li lukin e lape. ?

jan G li lape li lukin e ni:...

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jan Ote
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:26 am

jan-ante wrote:
jak Ote wrote: So
  jan Kikamesi li lukin e lukin lape. ?
Or maybe just:
  jan Kikamesi li lukin e lape. ?
jan G li lape li lukin e ni:...
But there is no "e ni:..." in the first sentence -- "Gilgamesh had a dream. He woke up and went to his mother."
Then he said: "mama o! tenpo pimeja la mi lukin e sitelen lape". (here "lukin e ni" can be used, thanks).
And what with a dream itself? e.g. "your dream is good and important." What's your opinion?

Next part:
jan mije olin
jan Enkitu li tawa e oko li lukin e ni: jan mije li tawa. jan Enkitu li toki e ni: "jan Sanka o, mi wile jan ni li tawa weka. tan seme la ona li tawa?". jan Sanka li toki e ni: "jan ante o, sina tawa tan seme? sina lukin sama jan pilin ike. sina pilin ike tan seme?"

jan mije li toki tawa jan Enkitu li toki e toki ni: "tenpo lili kama la mi wan poka meli olin mi. taso jan Kikamesi li jan lawa. a! ona li wile unpa e olin mi. tenpo pimeja wan la jan Kikamesi li unpa e olin mi. nasin pi kulupu pi jan sewi li ni: tenpo pimeja wan la jan lawa ken unpa e mije pi jan ante".

jan Enkitu li pilin ike wawa tan toki pi jan ni. ona li toki e ni: "mi tawa ma tomo Uluku! jan Kikamesi li unpa ala e mije sina".

jan Enkitu en jan Sonka li kama tawa ma tomo Uluku.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:09 am

jan Sanka o, mi wile jan ni li tawa weka. No can do, cant have a subordinate clause in tp. This says "I thusly manfully want and go away" Need 'mi wile e ni: jan ni li tawa weka.

jan mije li tawa Probably 'kama' is better. This just means "A man is moving" (Maybe even 'kama poka' "approach" but 'kama' is not a tawa class verb, so this might have to be th -- unacceptable-- 'kama tawa poka'

sina lukin sama jan pilin ike. Probably 'jan pi pilin ike' "man of bad feelings" rather than "bad man of feelings"

tenpo pimeja wan la jan lawa LI ken unpa e mije pi jan ante". Surely 'meli pi jan ante' (although I gather that homosexual marriages were OK in the good old days) Ditto jan Kikamesi li unpa ala e mije sina

jan Kikamesi li lukin e lape. ? No, I don't think so. This is "G sees a sleeper" or some such.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:29 pm

jak Ote wrote:But there is no "e ni:..." in the first sentence -- "Gilgamesh had a dream. He woke up and went to his mother."
Then he said: "mama o! tenpo pimeja la mi lukin e sitelen lape". (here "lukin e ni" can be used, thanks).
And what with a dream itself? e.g. "your dream is good and important." What's your opinion?

as much as i understand tp philosophy, you must specify something he saw in the dream. my by just ijo, may be ijo nasa anu ijo suli anu ijo sewi anu ijo mute anu ijo wan. but i am not sure, i am not a big tp philosopher

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:37 am

janKipo wrote:jan Sanka o, mi wile jan ni li tawa weka. No can do, cant have a subordinate clause in tp.
Right.
janKipo wrote:jan mije li tawa Probably 'kama' is better. This just means "A man is moving"
A man has been walking. It's not he was approaching Enkidu, just walking around nearby. In a way annoing to Enkidu.
janKipo wrote:sina lukin sama jan pilin ike. Probably 'jan pi pilin ike' "man of bad feelings"
You' re right.
janKipo wrote:tenpo pimeja wan la jan lawa LI ken unpa e mije pi jan ante". Surely 'meli pi jan ante'
Ooops! It's hight time I found mnemonics for mije/meli.
janKipo wrote:jan Kikamesi li lukin e lape. ? No, I don't think so. This is "G sees a sleeper" or some such.
I just wanted to make sure because for example in Slavic languages the same word сон (son, sen) means both: a sleep ('state of rest during which consciousness of the world is suspended') and a night dream ('mental images and emotions occurring during sleep').

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:16 am

jan-ante wrote:as much as i understand tp philosophy, you must specify something he saw in the dream.
Why do you think it must be specified? One can say 'I had a dream' or 'I saw images during my sleep' without specifying what was this dream about. And it's all right. I can't see anything against logics or tp philosophy in this statement. Please compare the three sencences from the text:
a) jan Kikamesi li lukin e sitelen lape* -- Gilgamesh saw a dream (some images during his sleep).
b) tenpo pimeja la mi lape li lukin e ni: [the dream] -- In the night I slept and saw this: [the dream]
c) ona li sona e sitelen lape* ni -- She understood the dream.
I think that we can also say:
a2) jan Kikamesi li lape li lukin -- Gilgamesh was sleeping and looking/seeing. (cf 'soweli li lukin li kute')
b2) tenpo pimeja la mi lape. mi lape la mi lukin e suno lili mute... -- I was sleeping when I saw stars...

* jan Kipo has suggested that 'lukin lape' could be better than 'sileten lape' for 'a dream'.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:57 pm

janKipo wrote:jan mije li tawa Probably 'kama' is better. This just means "A man is moving"

A man has been walking. It's not he was approaching Enkidu, just walking around nearby. In a way annoying to Enkidu.

Ooops! Sorry!

janKipo wrote:tenpo pimeja wan la jan lawa LI ken unpa e mije pi jan ante". Surely 'meli pi jan ante'

Ooops! It's high time I found mnemonics for mije/meli.

Well, 'meli' is "Mary" and 'mije' is like 'mi' (won't help females, alas)

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:28 pm

jak Ote wrote: a2) jan Kikamesi li lape li lukin -- Gilgamesh was sleeping and looking/seeing.

i like this because in this construction the reader would imply the casuative relationship betwen lape and lukin. it is easy to get the meaning because the both are predicates. "lukin lape" is also good as a complex verb, but (to me) requires a little bit more time to analyse

Why do you think it must be specified?
this is a good philisophical question. if you remember the story about "wile" as "must", they say: "if you must, then someone wants this, i.e. wile". may by this is also because "to see the dream" is a passive form in my language (mne snitsya), while tp has no passive form. remember, jKipo said "not "mistake was done" but "we did a mistake" in tp". but i do not insist. anyway, i am not a big fan of tp philosophy

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:21 pm

jak Ote wrote: a2) jan Kikamesi li lape li lukin -- Gilgamesh was sleeping and looking/seeing.

i like this because in this construction the reader would imply the causative relationship between lape and lukin. it is easy to get the meaning because the both are predicates. "lukin lape" is also good as a complex verb, but (to me) requires a little bit more time to analyse

I don't see a causal connection between the two in 'li lape li lukin,' merely something like simultaneity. But I do think its a good way to deal with dreams where the content gets mentioned somehow. 'lukin lape' (and the others) do take a minute and may get misread (see my bollixes often above and elsewhere on these fora), but once established as an idiom, it goes smoothly.

I don't see seeing a dream as clearly passive in an abstract sense: the agent is the seer, the dream the seen -- "a dream was seen" actually seems odd to me (not to criticize Russian, mind you; every language has quirks of grammar that make no logical sense -- we are just starting to learn tp's) even with "by me" thrown in.
I'm not too sure that the absence of passive forms is really a part of tp philosophy (really Sonja's philosophy which shares some features with her language) or is just a matter of keeping the grammar as simple as possible (which is, of course, one of those common features).


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