jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:15 am

I had a hard day. I should have read the text twice after typing in from the paper. Sorry.

janKipo wrote:ona li lon ma pi moku telo li awen.["were in the country of wet food"? "paddy?" "were in the country where they drank "springs?"]
in a place of drinking water; they were waiting near a watering-place. I expected it won't be clear. I think it would be better to ommit this.
janKipo wrote:ona li pilin e lupa ['palisa'? or are we into rimshots already -- I think Enkidu is probably not up for fancy sex]pi jan soweli Enkitu.
My Freudian slip. I thougt about touching his 'lu_k_a' before unpa.

Revised version:
meli pi tomo pi jan sewi
jan pi utala soweli en jan Sanka li tawa weka. tenpo suno mute lili la ona li kama tawa ma supa. ona li awen. tenpo suno sin la soweli en jan soweli Enkitu li kama. jan soweli Enkitu li moku e telo e kasi anpa poka soweli. telo en kasi anpa li pona tawa ona.

jan Sanka li lukin e jan soweli Enkitu li kama tawa ona. jan Sanka li weka e len. ona li pilin e luka pi jan soweli Enkitu. meli Sanka li unpa e mije Enkitu. mije Enkitu li unpa e meli Sanka. tenpo suno mute la ona li unpa. tenpo pimejo mute la ona li unpa. ona li pini unpa la jan Enkitu li lukin tawa soweli. taso soweli pilin ike tawa ona. tan ni la ona li tawa weka. jan Enkitu li wile kama tawa soweli. taso ona li pilin wawa ala. ona li ken ala tawa wawa.

jan Enkitu li pilin e ni: ona li ken sona. ona li kama tawa jan Sanka li lukin e sinpin ona li kute.

jan Sanka li toki tawa jan Enkitu. ona li toki e ni: "jan Enkitu o! sina sama jan sewi. sina tawa poka soweli tan seme?"


janKipo wrote:What it says is clear but not what it means "Enkidu thinks he can know/understand/be wise."
In the first part of this passage Enkidu is addressed as "jan soweli Enkitu". Then, when they start unpa, he's "mije Enkitu". Next, during days and nights of unpa, he and Samhat are "ona". After this he turned his attention to his animals, but now he's already "jan Enkitu". Through these days and nights with the woman, jan soweli Enkitu became jan Enkitu. Earlier his body was human, but his behaviour and mind were of animal. Animal can pilin=feel, but cannot pilin=think like humans do. Now Enkidu realizes he's actually a human being. His mind has broadened. While tokiponian 'pilin' can mean something like unaware perceiving, more "feeling" than "thinking", only a man can pilin about his possibilities and about understanding. In this experience Enkidu's "pilin" becomes awareness, understanding and thinking: jan Enkitu li pilin e ni: ona li ken sona. He feels-thinks that he can understand/know/be wise. This way, in this very "pilin" he started to think.
To make it more clear:
jan Enkitu li pilin e ni: ona li ken sona. jan Enkitu li pilin e ni: "mi ken sona. mi pilin. mi jan". ona li kama tawa jan Sanka li lukin e sinpin ona li kute.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:42 am

taso soweli LI pilin ike tawa ona

Thanks for the clarification, it is a nice point (in both senses of the word, hence some of the difficulty).

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:07 pm

Thank you.

... ona li kama tawa jan Sanka li anpa. ona li lukin e sinpin jan Sanka li kute.

jan Sanka li toki tawa jan Enkitu. ona li toki e ni: "jan Enkitu o! sina sama jan sewi. sina tawa poka soweli tan seme? o kama".

jan Enkitu
jan Sanka li tu e len ona. ona li len e jan Enkitu kepeken len wan. jan Sanka li toki e ni: "o kama poka mi. o kama tawa jan".

ona li tawa tomo pi jan lawa soweli. jan lawa soweli mute li kepeken li lukin e jan Enkitu li toki e ni: "ona li suli sama jan Kikamesi. ona li wawa sama suno pi jan sewi An". ona li pana e pan e telo nasa jelo. jan Enkitu li moku ala. ona li lukin wawa taso. tenpo ala ona li lukin e pan e telo nasa. jan Sanka li toki ni: "jan Ekitu o moku e moku ni. o moku e telo ni. ni li nasin jan". jan Enkitu li moku e pan mute. ona li moku e telo nasa jelo mute. ona li pilin pona mute. ona li telo e sijelo ona. ona li len. jan Enkitu li jan kin. jan lawa soweli li lape la jan Enkitu li pale ala. ona li kama jo e ilo utala li utala e soweli ike. jan lawa soweli li ken lape pona.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:51 pm

tenpo ala LA ona li lukin e pan e telo nasa

jan lawa soweli li lape la jan Enkitu li pale ala Again the contrast of "when. while" with "if" is lost (but is it needed?), I assume 'pale' is 'lape' as I would type it.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:31 pm

janKipo wrote:jan lawa soweli li lape la jan Enkitu li pale ala Again the contrast of "when. while" with "if" is lost (but is it needed?)
In natural languages this explicit contrast is sometimes lost too. Neither grammar structure nor a key word determines the meaning. We recognize the meaning by the context. The tp 'la' structure is used alike: it's time/condictional clause. So if it's clear from the context, then -- I think -- it's all right.

...jan lawa soweli li ken lape pona.

lape pi jan Kikamesi

jan Kikamesi li lukin e pale. ona li pini e lape li tawa mama meli. jan Kikamesi li toki e ni: "mama o! tenpo pimeja la mi lukin e lape. mi lukin e suno lili mute sewi mi. suno pi jan sewi An li anpa weka poka mi. mi wile kama jo sewi e ona. taso mi ken ala tawa e ona. jan pi ma tomo Uluku li kupulu poka suno ni. mi anpa tawa ona sama anpa meli. mi tawa ona tawa sina nasin ni: sina ken sona e ni: mi sama ala sama.

mama pi jan Kikamesi li sona ali. jan Nintu li sona ali. ona li sona e lape ni li toki e ni: "mije lili mi o! lape sina li ni: tenpo kama la jan wawa li kama tawa sina. ona li wawa sama suno pi jan sewi An. tenpo kama la ona li pona tawa sina. ona li pana pona tawa sina li utala e jan ike sina. ona li jan sama sina. sina li olin e ona sama meli olin. mije lili o! lape sina li pona li suli".

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:17 pm

jan Kikamesi li lukin e pale. ? I thought you had my finger problem and meant "lape' but now I am not sure. Gilgamesh looked at/saw sleep or, 'pali', activity? or 'lukin lape' "tried to sleep"? (I take it 'lukin' is a helping verb like 'wile' that takes a whole predication as a complement).

ona li pini e lape li tawa mama meli. Ditto, with less confidence, for 'pini' And so on throughout, apparently. But I can't find a definitive word, only "common sense:" what we try to do or finish doing is often a transitive act, wringing a chicken's neck or or some such, so needs the whole predication available.

mi lukin e suno lili mute LON sewi mi. I think.

suno pi jan sewi An li anpa weka poka mi. ? The light of the god An falls far from me? carries me away down?

mi wile kama jo sewi e ona I want to get it highly?

taso mi ken ala tawa e ona.? But I cannot move it. I don't follow these three sentences and don't remember the story well enough t make a good guess (I'm fuzzy from Enkidu to Ut Naspishtam, at least).

jan pi ma tomo Uluku li kupulu [kulupu -- you do have my touch] poka suno ni. The citizens of Uruch get together with this light

mi anpa tawa ona sama anpa meli. I fall/ go down to it like a female fall [faint? - if so, careful! If not, I'd better be careful]?

mi tawa ona tawa sina nasin ni: I go to it for this path of yours " ( I figure 'nasin sina ni' intended. "this systematic you" didn't seem much at all).

sina ken sona e ni: mi sama ala sama. As what?

mama pi jan Kikamesi li sona ali. jan Nintu li sona ali. 'e ali' or just 'ala' (I hate those too close words)

Er, ah .. do we have a "sun"-"son" problem here? This obscure 'suno' makes a bit more sense as 'jan mije lili'

ona li pana E? pona tawa sina

sina [li] olin e ona sama meli olin.

Ahah!? 'lape' for "dream"? Not sure I have a better idea: 'sitelen lape'? "toki lape'? others?

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:11 am

janKipo wrote:Ahah!? 'lape' for "dream"?
Yes, it's a dream of Gilgamesh.
janKipo wrote:Not sure I have a better idea: 'sitelen lape'? "toki lape'? others?
I'm for 'sitelen lape', because we can see, look at, watch our night dreams, they are pictures, not words.

janKipo wrote:I don't follow these three sentences and don't remember the story well enough t make a good guess
It's all right then. The tp text should stand on his own feet.

jan Kikamesi li lukin e sitelen lape.
Gilgamesh have seen a dream.
ona li pini e lape li tawa mama meli
He woke up and went to [his] mother.
jan Kikamesi li toki e ni: "mama o! tenpo pimeja la mi lukin e sitelen lape.
Gilgamesh said: "Mother! I have seen a dream in the night".
mi lukin e suno lili mute lon sewi mi.
I saw stars above me.
suno pi jan sewi An li anpa wawa poka mi
The star of An has fallen next to me.
mi wile kama jo sewi e ona.
I tried to lift it.
taso mi ken ala tawa e ona.
But I cannot move it.
jan pi ma tomo Uluku li kupulu poka suno ni.
The citizens of Uruk gathered around this star.
mi anpa tawa ona sama anpa tawa meli mi.
I laid down on it like on a wife. (a very difficult sentence for me)
mi tawa e ona tawa sina tawa e ni: sina ken sona e ni: mi sama ala sama.
I moved it to you for this: you can know this: we are equal or not. [I moved it to you in order that: you can compare us]. (a very difficult sentence).
Ah! Describing dreams...

The following revised part is quite easy, I think:
mama pi jan Kikamesi li sona e ali. jan Nintu li sona e ali. ona li sona e sitelen lape ni li toki e ni: "mije lili mi o! sitelen lape sina li ni: tenpo kama la jan wawa li kama tawa sina. ona li wawa sama suno pi jan sewi An. tenpo kama la ona li pona tawa sina. ona li pana e pona tawa sina li utala e jan ike sina. ona li jan sama sina. sina olin e ona sama meli olin. mije lili o! sitelen lape sina li pona li suli".

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:49 am

janKipo wrote:Not sure I have a better idea: 'sitelen lape'? "toki lape'? others?
I'm for 'sitelen lape', because we can see, look at, watch our night dreams, they are pictures, not words.

I also like 'lukin lape' (thought of later)

ona li pini e lape li tawa mama meli Back to earlier discussion, I think is just 'pini lape' (cf. 'ken lape'). But I don't have a definitive line here yet.

suno pi jan sewi An li anpa wawa LON poka mi 'poka mi" alone means "with me" 'anpa wawa' sounds like "crashed down"

mi wile kama jo sewi e ona. "I wanted to highly get it" maybe 'mi lukin sewi e ona' (again, anticipating a definitive word)21

jan pi ma tomo Uluku li kupulu LON poka suno ni. ? I'm not sure how to get the "around" in (something with 'sike,' presumably, but what"


mi anpa tawa ona sama anpa tawa meli mi. Hard for me, too, since we rally need a conjunction here, not a preposition and tp lacks this (and most other) conjunctions. Even if 'anpa' here is a noun meaning "a going down" we have the problem of a prep phrase modifying a noun. Not that I have a better suggestion.

mi tawa e ona tawa sina tawa e ni: sina ken sona e ni: mi sama ala sama. I like this for "compare", but I would use 'mi tu' to clarify a bit (the other mi might be mama, tough). second 'tawa' is also a prep, so no 'e'.

Now the rest is clear too. Thanks; it's going great.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:46 pm

janKipo wrote:janKipo wrote:Not sure I have a better idea: 'sitelen lape'? "toki lape'? others?
I'm for 'sitelen lape', because we can see, look at, watch our night dreams, they are pictures, not words.
I also like 'lukin lape' (thought of later)
I'm not sure what do you mean by this (my English is poor). If it's all right I would prefer just "lukin lape" for "seeing a dream, dreaming". Please don't hesitate to point out in the text where it can't be used.
janKipo wrote:Back to earlier discussion, I think is just 'pini lape' (cf. 'ken lape'). But I don't have a definitive line here yet.
Could be both are correct? Old manual says (lesson 6):
mi pini e lape sina = I ended your sleep. I woke you up.
janKipo wrote:'anpa wawa' sounds like "crashed down"
Then just "anpa"?
janKipo wrote:mi wile kama jo sewi e ona. "I wanted to highly get it" maybe 'mi lukin sewi e ona' (again, anticipating a definitive word)21
"mi wile tawa sewi e ona"
janKipo wrote:jan pi ma tomo Uluku li kupulu LON poka suno ni. ? I'm not sure how to get the "around" in (something with 'sike,' presumably, but what"
"li kulupu li sike e suno ni"? (they encircled this)?

By the way, now we've got official "when" with "la":
http://en.tokipona.org/wiki/a wrote:mije li moli la ona li toki wawa e “a!” -- When the man died, he screamed “aaarrg!”

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:12 pm

janKipo wrote:janKipo wrote:Not sure I have a better idea: 'sitelen lape'? "toki lape'? others?
I'm for 'sitelen lape', because we can see, look at, watch our night dreams, they are pictures, not words.
I also like 'lukin lape' (thought of later)

I'm not sure what do you mean by this (my English is poor). If it's all right I would prefer just "lukin lape" for "seeing a dream, dreaming". Please don't hesitate to point out in the text where it can't be used.

I think it is alright and seems to me the best of the lot "sleep sights"

janKipo wrote:Back to earlier discussion, I think is just 'pini lape' (cf. 'ken lape'). But I don't have a definitive line here yet.

Could be both are correct? Old manual says (lesson 6):
mi pini e lape sina = I ended your sleep. I woke you up.

But he did nothing to wake himself up, he just stopped sleeping. So I take the difference to be 'ona li pini e lape mi' "He did something to me that awakened me" 'mi pini e lape mi' "I did something that awakened me." but more passively, "mi pini lape" "I awoke," no other action required.

janKipo wrote:mi wile kama jo sewi e ona. "I wanted to highly get it" maybe 'mi lukin sewi e ona' (again, anticipating a definitive word)21

"mi wile tawa sewi e ona" janKipo wrote:mi wile kama jo sewi e ona. "I wanted to highly get it" maybe 'mi lukin sewi e ona' (again, anticipating a definitive word)21

"mi wile tawa sewi e ona"

Well, "want/need to" is not quite "try to" and, while "make it go high" is surely the right idea, 'sewi', as transitive, does the work as well, I think.

janKipo wrote:jan pi ma tomo Uluku li kupulu LON poka suno ni. ? I'm not sure how to get the "around" in (something with 'sike,' presumably, but what"

"li kulupu li sike e suno ni"? (they encircled this)?

I think this works, though I see a variety of ideas for 'sike' as a transitive verb (this may suggest that the group walked/danced/marched around the star like planets around their sun, rather than standing around staring).

By the way, now we've got official "when" with "la":

http://en.tokipona.org/wiki/a wrote:mije li moli la ona li toki wawa e “a!” -- When the man died, he screamed “aaarrg!”

Nice to have the decisive word on that: context will decide.


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