jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

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jan Ote
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jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:47 am


jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

tomo Uluku li lon. sinpin pi ma tomo Uluku li sewi li suli. sinpin ni li kiwen. tomo Enana li tomo pi jan sewi Inana. sinpin pi tomo Enana li kiwen. sinpin ni li walo sama suno. o tawa tomo pi jan sewi Inana! o lukin! jan ante li pali ala e tomo sama. jan lawa ante li pali ala e tomo sama. jan seme li kama pali e ali ni? jan Kikamesili li jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku. ona li kama pali e tomo sewi ni e sinpin ni. ona li suli. jan Kikamesi li utala sama soweli wawa. ona li pakala e sinpin kiwen. ona li lawa e kulupu pi jan utala ona. ona li jan lawa. jan seme li ken sama e ona? jan seme ken toki e ni: "mi jan lawa"?

jan sewi Alulu li pali e sijelo pi jan Kikamesi. ona li suli li pona lukin. jan Kikamesi li wawa li sama jan sewi. jan ala li wile utala e ona.

jan pi ma tomo Uluku li pilin ike tawa jan Kikamesi. jan mute li tawa tomo pi jan sewi li toki e ni: "jan sewi o! jan Kikamesi li suli li sona. ona li wawa. nimi ona li suli. jan Kikamesi li kama jo mije. ona li lawa jan ni tawa utala. tani ni la mama mute li pilin ike. jan Kikamesi li jan lawa pona ala pona? jan Kikamesi li kama jo meli li unpa e ona. tani ni la mama mute li pana e telo oko". jan Kikamesi li jan lawa pona ala pona?".


Please comment, correct and suggest improvements. Translations are welcome.

jan Ote

jan-ante
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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:23 pm

о всё видавшем..
jak Ote wrote: tomo Enana li tomo pi jan sewi Inana.

jan sewi meli. perhaps you should stress here that Inanna was a goddes

jak Ote wrote:jan seme li kama pali e ali ni?
may be "e ijo ale ni"

jak Ote wrote:jan sewi Alulu li pali e sijelo pi jan Kikamesi.
whom do you mean? Enlil?

jak Ote wrote:jan Kikamesi li kama jo mije.
jan Kikamesi li kama jo e mije. here i have a strong temptation to use "kulupu" as a transitive verb

jak Ote wrote:ona li lawa jan ni tawa utala
ona li lawa e jan ni tawa utala

jak Ote wrote:tani ni la mama mute li pilin ike
why "la"?? mama mute li pilin ike tan ni

jak Ote wrote:Kikamesi li kama jo meli li unpa e ona
"e"

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:19 am

jan-ante wrote:о всё видавшем..
o! sina sona.

jan-ante wrote:
jak Ote wrote:jan sewi Alulu li pali e sijelo pi jan Kikamesi.
whom do you mean? Enlil?
Enlil's sister(?), Aruru, also known as Ninhursag.
jan-ante wrote:
jak Ote wrote:jan Kikamesi li kama jo mije.
jan Kikamesi li kama jo e mije. here i have a strong temptation to use "kulupu" as a transitive verb
So: "jan Kikamesi li kulupu e mije"? He gathers men?

Some "e"s to not forget: e e e e e :)

I think I should change a sentence:
jan Kikamesi li kama jo e meli li unpa e ona. mama mute li pana e telo oko tan ni.
I believe the original passage says that he forced his ius primae noctis. Then in the first place their "jan olin" should be upset. If so, then:
jan Kikamesi li kama jo e meli li unpa e ona. jan olin mute li pana e telo oko tan ni.

sina pilin e seme?

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:01 pm

jak Ote wrote: Enlil's sister(?), Aruru, also known as Ninhursag.

ImageImageAruruImageImageImageImageImageGilgamesh. ImageImageImageImageImageEnkiduImageImage:ImageEnkiduImageImageImageImageImageGilgamesh.

mama sewi Aruru li pali ala e jan Gilgamesh. ona li pali e jan Enkidu tawa ni: jan E li ken utala e jan G.

I believe the original passage says that he forced his ius primae noctis. Then in the first place their "jan olin" should be upset. If so, then:

i think not only husbands, in a traditional society the entire family would be upset, including fathers brothers etc, so you could write: jan mute li pana e telo oko tan ni.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:18 pm

Nice hieroglyphs, though some of the characters seem arbitrary, perhaps because of the limited set available.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:41 am

jan-ante wrote:
jan Ote wrote:jan sewi Alulu li pali e sijelo pi jan Kikamesi.
jan Ote wrote:Enlil's sister(?), Aruru, also known as Ninhursag.
mama sewi Aruru li pali ala e jan Gilgamesh. ona li pali e jan Enkidu tawa ni: jan E li ken utala e jan G.
"mama sewi Aruru" is a good idea, thank you. Aruru was someway (licentia poetica?) responsible for "his shape", M.G. Kovacs 1998:
 Who can say like Gilgamesh: "I am King!"?
 Whose name, from the day of his birth, was called "Gilgamesh"?
 Two-thirds of him is god, one-third of him is human.
 The Great Goddess [Aruru] designed(?) the model for his body,
 she prepared his form ...
But his real mother was goddess Ninsun, so I think I should skip the issue. But then I need to find some other way to say/suggest he's not only a mighty one but a half-god, I suppose.

------

... jan mute li pana e telo oko tan ni. jan Kikamesi li jan lawa pona ala pona?".

jan soweli Enkitu
jan sewi li kute e ni. jan sewi An li lawa e jan sewi. ona li toki tawa jan mama Alulu e ni: "tenpo pini la sina pali e jan. o pali jan wawa sin. o pali e jan sama pi jan Kikamesi. mi wile e ni: ona li utala e jan Kikamesi. tan ni la jan pi ma tomo Uluku li ken lon pi ike ala".

mama sewi Alulu li telo e luka ona. ona li kama jo e kiwen telo li pana e ijo ni tawa ma supa. tan ni la jan Enkitu li kama lon. jan Enkitu li suli li wawa. ona li jo e linja mute. ona en soweli li moku e kasi anpa. ona en soweli li moku e telo. jan Enkitu li jan soweli. ona li sona ala e ilo e tomo e jan ante.

It's getting harder... What to do with "a trapper/hunter", "a trap" (a hole in the ground to catch animals?)?

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby janKipo » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:59 pm

I'm having trouble figuring out how someone can be 2/3 god and 1/3 human (the Chinese Remainder theorem seems to say it can't be worked out with pairings).Ah, well, myths and legends!

'ona li toki tawa jan mama Alulu e ni' the grammar puts prepositional phrases modifying the whole after the object 'e ni tawa mama Alulu' but I am not sure how firm that is (few counterexamples, all called into question, and some defended by trying to find a way to introduce prep phrases that modify just noun phrases -- not applicable here)

'o pali E jan wawa sin.'

'tan ni la jan pi ma tomo Uluku li ken lon pi ike ala".' Not sure what the end means. 'pi' has usually been restricted to noun phrases, although I think it makes perfect sense in verbal ones too. 'lon' is a preposition functioning as a verb here (if I am reading this right), so what follows it is the object of the preposition, not the direct object of the verb, so automatically grouped as a single item and not needing 'pi': "can be in a not bad place"? Of course, 'lon ike ala' can also mean "not be in a bad place' but the difference hardly seems to matter here (and if we go chasing after that ambiguity, the whole language gets a couple of orders of magnitude more complex). Or maybe you mean. "can exist not badly" which would use 'pi' (if allowed). All these call for a less awkward formulation -- for which I have no suggestions.

The dictionary uses 'kiwen telo' for "mud" but that (now) looks wrong to me and something using 'ko' looks better. Aesthetics!

"trap" 'ilo pi kama jo'? not very good, yet. But getting longer is also bad. Need a clever metaphor.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan-ante » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:11 pm

jak Ote wrote:But his real mother was goddess Ninsun, so I think I should skip the issue. But then I need to find some other way to say/suggest he's not only a mighty one but a half-god, I suppose.

just say simply, he was a son of meli sewi Ninsun and jan lawa Lugalbanda

ona li toki tawa jan mama Alulu e ni:
mama sewi Aruru

ona li kama jo e kiwen telo li pana
clay - ko pi ma telo?

ona li jo e linja mute
sijelo ona li jo e linja mute

jan pi ma tomo Uluku li ken lon pi ike ala
jan sama pi jan Kikamesi
perhaps you dont need pi after (quasi)prepositions, because they do regroupping without pi. with pi "jan sama" means "brother of Gilgamesh". ironically, later they became brothers, but this is another story

trapper hunter - jan alasa (new word!). trap - ilo awen/alasa

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:39 am

janKipo wrote:I'm having trouble figuring out how someone can be 2/3 god and 1/3 human
The simpliest method of saying "more god than human".

janKipo wrote:'ona li toki tawa jan mama Alulu e ni' the grammar puts prepositional phrases modifying the whole after the object 'e ni tawa mama Alulu' but I am not sure how firm that is (few counterexamples, all called into question, and some defended by trying to find a way to introduce prep phrases that modify just noun phrases -- not applicable here)
On 'tawa musi pi toki sitelen kepeken toki pona' blog I found the following comment from a reader
toki tawa [sina ken weka e 'jan'] ona e ni:
pona la 'toki e ni tawa ona'
Now all occurences of the phrase are changed to ... li toki e ni tawa ...
But I've visited ru.wikipedia and found this: jan mije li toki tawa jan sewi li toki e ni: "ona li moli tan seme?".
So, maybe it would be good to express it like this: ona li toki tawa mama sewi Alulu li toki e ni: "...". Simple grammar, no problems, some archaism ("Then Telemachus spoke to him and said..."). On the other hand: ona li toki e ni tawa mama sewi... has educational value for a tp reader. Still hesitating.

janKipo wrote:'o pali E jan wawa sin.'
In think that you wanted to add or comment something here?

janKipo wrote:'tan ni la jan pi ma tomo Uluku li ken lon pi ike ala".' Not sure what the end means.
Something like "people of Uruk could live in peace/quietly/without all ike (mentioned above)".
lon
v. to be (there), to be present, to exist
n. life, existence - ?
janKipo wrote:'lon' is a preposition functioning as a verb here (if I am reading this right), so what follows it is the object of the preposition, not the direct object of the verb, so automatically grouped as a single item and not needing 'pi': "can be in a not bad place"? Of course, 'lon ike ala' can also mean "not be in a bad place' but the difference hardly seems to matter here (and if we go chasing after that ambiguity, the whole language gets a couple of orders of magnitude more complex). Or maybe you mean. "can exist not badly" which would use 'pi' (if allowed). All these call for a less awkward formulation
I messed up verb and noun here ("can live..." and *"can have a life...").
janKipo wrote:for which I have no suggestions.
It's a pity.

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Re: jan Kikamesi. jan lawa pi ma tomo Uluku

Postby jan Ote » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:01 am

jan-ante wrote:just say simply, he was a son of meli sewi Ninsun and jan lawa Lugalbanda
Right. Longer context to make sure that "ona" is unambigous:
jan Kikamesi li utala sama soweli wawa. ona li pakala e sinpin kiwen. ona li lawa e kulupu pi jan utala ona. ona li jan lawa. jan seme li ken sama e ona? jan seme ken toki e ni: "mi jan lawa"?

meli sewi Ninsun en jan lawa Lukapanta li mama ona. jan Kikamesi li suli li pona lukin. ona li wawa li sama jan sewi. jan ala li wile utala e ona.


jan-ante wrote:
jan pi ma tomo Uluku li ken lon pi ike ala

jan sama pi jan Kikamesi

perhaps you dont need pi after (quasi)prepositions, because they do regroupping without pi.
I thought it should be here, because of a rule of grouping:
  jan sama jan Kikamesi = (jan sama jan) Kikamesi
  human-like person [named] Gilgamesh
while:
  jan sama pi jan Kikamesi = (jan sama) (jan Kikamesi)
  person similar to person [named] Gilgamesh (tp idiomatic: brother of Gilgamesh)
jan-ante wrote:with pi "jan sama" means "brother of Gilgamesh". ironically, later they became brothers, but this is another story
I hope to reach this point of story with your help.


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