soweli suli li lape

Language learning: How to speak Toki Pona, translation problems, advice, memory aids, tools and methods to learn Toki Pona and other languages faster
Lingva lernado: Kiel paroli Tokiponon, tradukproblemoj, konsiloj, memoraj helpiloj, iloj kaj metodoj por pli rapide lerni Tokiponon kaj aliajn lingvojn
User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

soweli suli li lape

Postby jan Ote » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:47 am

soweli suli li lape mute.
soweli suli li lape mute.

mi pilin ike tan ni: ona li wawa li ike.
tan ni la mi tawa kalama ala.

ona li pini e lape la ona li moku e mi.
ona li pini e lape la ona li moku e mi!

tenpo mute pini la soweli li lape.
tenpo mute pini la soweli li kalama lape.
tenpo lili pini la… soweli li kama jo!


to sleep deeply = 'li lape mute' or 'li lape wawa'?

Please provide comments, corrections and suggestions. Translations into English are welcome.

jan Ote

jan-ante
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:05 pm

Re: soweli suli li lape

Postby jan-ante » Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:10 pm

jak Ote wrote:soweli suli li lape mute.

beast sleeps deeply

mi pilin ike tan ni: ona li wawa li ike.

i am in fear because he is strong and bad

tan ni la mi tawa kalama ala.

because of this i move silently. perhaps you dont need la here: mi tawa kalama ala tan ni

ona li pini e lape la ona li moku e mi.

if he wake up, he will eat me

tenpo mute pini la soweli li lape

beast sleeps long time (already)

tenpo lili pini la… soweli li kama jo!

but resently (just now?) the beast takes (you mean: is/was captured?)
tenpo pini lili la mi kama jo e soweli. i am not sure if there any passive form in toki pona

User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: soweli suli li lape

Postby jan Ote » Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:58 pm

jan-ante o, pona!

How do you read 'tenpo mute pini la soweli li kalama lape'?
tenpo lili pini la… soweli li kama jo!

but resently (just now?) the beast takes (you mean: is/was captured?)
Your first reading is a good one: the beast is trying to catch somebody (then it's time to run away!).

These "strong" and "bad'' are added by me, because "mi pilin ike tan ona" seemed to be too ambigous for "we fear it". Is there any other way to say "somebody fears something"? I think that context of "suweli suli" isn't enought to suggest that "pilin ike" is "to feel fear".
mi actually means "we" here, from context -- it's a text from children game "Old bear is sleeping deeply":
http://culture.polishsite.us/articles/art243fr.htm

jan-ante
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:05 pm

Re: soweli suli li lape

Postby jan-ante » Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:34 pm

jak Ote wrote:
How do you read 'tenpo mute pini la soweli li kalama lape'?

beast snores long time (already)
Your first reading is a good one: the beast is trying to catch somebody (then it's time to run away!).

ni li lon la ona li wile kama jo e jan.
or, in more advisable manner: ona li wile e ni: ona li kama jo e jan
but i better like first option. actually it does not mean "try", but something close to this.
i saw a critical "review" of one guy on toki pona, he claims that Sonja told him (in chat) that there is no "try" in toki pona. regardless the reliability of this claim, we can try a japanese calque: use lukin. japanese use the verb miru (see view look) to express "try" like this: yomu - read, yonde miru -try ro read. following this model, we could say: ona li lukin kama jo e jan. but this usage is probably not self-evident

User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: soweli suli li lape

Postby jan Ote » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:17 am

jan-ante wrote:
Your first reading is a good one: the beast is trying to catch somebody (then it's time to run away!).
ni li lon la ona li wile kama jo e jan.
Does "ni li lon la..." mean "this exists", "this is happening..."? I find it rather difficult. Is it in any way different form "tenpo ni la..."?
jan-ante wrote:or, in more advisable manner: ona li wile e ni: ona li kama jo e jan
Is it possible to do it in one sentence like: "ona li wile (op?) kama jo e jan"? There is "pi" word for re-grouping nouns-modifiers, but I suppose it can't be used for verbs: *ona li wile pi kama jo e jan.

Actually there is no explicit "try" in the original text and I presume it could be ommitted in the translation too. I would like to make it simple and rely on the immediate in-game context, while trying to preserve some means used in the original.
Children chose one person as a bear. The bear is sitting in the middle of the circle pretending that he's asleep and he's snoring; the children are walking in the circle and sing:
 Old bear is sleeping deeply,
 [...]
then children are standing round in the circle and recite:
 The first hour - the bear sleeps
 The second hour - the bear snores
 The third hour - the bear _catches_!
[starts catching, when the word 'catches' is spoken]
The person in the middle pretending to be a bear stands up and tries to catch somebody while children break a circle and run away trying to escape.


While I can hardly imagine using rhymes and rhythmic structure here, I can still use some pararelism:
tenpo mute pini la soweli li lape.
 tenpo mute pini la soweli li kalama lape.
 tenpo lili pini la… soweli li kama jo e jan!

 Long time passed - the bear sleeps
 Long time passed - the bear snores
 Short time passed - the bear is catching people!
Is it correct and understandable to a degree the original is? Can I ommit "e jan"?

jan-ante
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:05 pm

Re: soweli suli li lape

Postby jan-ante » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:44 pm

jak Ote wrote:Does "ni li lon la..." mean "this exists", "this is happening..."? I find it rather difficult. Is it in any way different form "tenpo ni la..."?

no. ni li lon la is my introbuctory phrase, not part of the text about bear. i should say it in english: if so, then ona li wile kama jo e jan
The third hour - the bear _catches_!

yes, it was my mistake. grammatically i saw this, but i failed to believe that you were so.. unwise approaching a dangerous animal without a good reason and clear plan. i supposed that you are going to capture him, but tried to use a passive form of toki pona

Is it correct and understandable to a degree the original is? Can I ommit "e jan"?
you can, but it is better to keep, this could prevent the mistake above

User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: soweli suli li lape

Postby jan Ote » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:44 am

Thank you.

janKipo
Posts: 2828
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: soweli suli li lape

Postby janKipo » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:21 pm

Somewhere in either the vocab items on this site or in the notes about what Sonja is thinking, 'lukin' is used for "try" but I don't know what the final status will be.

The stuff before 'la' is in a muddle. I would read 'tenpo mute pini' as "a long time ago" and 'tenpo mute' alone as "for a long time," or as "often," but others seem to do it other ways and there is no clear place that I have found to lay it all out. 'ni li lon la' looks good for "if this is so/occurs."

I *think* that 'pini' is a helping verb like 'wile,' so you can say 'pini lape' for "wake up" but again usage varies.

There is no passive in tp -- folks have got to take responsibility: no "Mistakes were made," only "We made mistakes"

Aesthetics: if 'ni' refers to another sentence, it is nice to put it close to that sentence. So, if the explanation/cause comes first then 'tan ni la' to introduction consequent. But if it follows then 'tan ni:' at the end.

User avatar
jan Ote
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:15 am
Location: ma Posuka
Contact:

Re: soweli suli li lape

Postby jan Ote » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:40 am

janKipo wrote:The stuff before 'la' is in a muddle. I would read 'tenpo mute pini' as "a long time ago" and 'tenpo mute' alone as "for a long time," or as "often," but others seem to do it other ways and there is no clear place that I have found to lay it all out.
It makes sense, too. But unfortunatelly, "for a long time" and "often" have different meanings. How can "is sleeping for a long time" be distinguished from "sleeps often, not necessarily now")?
The same word (tenpo=ENGLISH 'time') has been used for two dissimilar concepts. It's used for some continuum, passing time (vremja) AND for a different idea of instance, occasion (raz)? How can we differentiate: does 'tenpo mute' mean 'much time' (mnogo vremeni)'? or does it mean 'many times' (mnogo raz)?
Still learning. Now I believe that "much time", "a long time" are just "tenpo suli", while "tenpo mute" is always for instances, for recurring events.
Common:
S1. tenpo suli la soweli li lape = big time LA soweli li lape. (it's sleeping [for a] long time)
S2. tenpo suli pini la soweli li lape = big time finished LA soweli li lape. (it slept a long time ago)
M1. tenpo mute la soweli li lape = many times LA soweli li lape. (it often sleeps)
Uncommon:
M2. tenpo mute pini la soweli li lape = many times finished LA soweli li lape. (it slept many times)

By the way, methinks I can see the same kind of difference between 'suli' and 'mute', that we have seen when talking about numbers. Am I wrong?

janKipo wrote:Aesthetics: if 'ni' refers to another sentence, it is nice to put it close to that sentence. So, if the explanation/cause comes first then 'tan ni la' to introduction consequent. But if it follows then 'tan ni:' at the end.
I like it.

janKipo
Posts: 2828
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: soweli suli li lape

Postby janKipo » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:27 pm

'mute' seems tto mean both "much" and "many" (apparently"mnogo" does , too), that is, both mass and count. English uses the two words to (often) distinguish the two senses of time, rather than having two words. tp seems to have only one word in each category, which makes for a problem (which I hadn't thought of this way before, thanks). We need some devices to sort this all out. Maybe 'suli' is part of the solution, but then we have only one opposite to both it and 'mute,' 'lili'. So something more is needed. Prepositions seems to come into consideration, though I worry about just relexing English in using 'lon' and 'tawa' (and probably others) for time.


Return to “kama sona toki”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron