Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
enervation
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:49 pm

Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:51 pm

Hey everyone!

I don't know much Toki Pona, but as I was looking through http://tokipona.net/tp/classicwordlist.aspx, I'd like to suggest an alternative character set that more closely matches the meaning of the characters in modern Mandarin Chinese.

ante: 变 (change) → 异 (different, differ)
e: 把→着. The way 把 is used in Chinese is noun + 把 + direct object + verb, and it feels confusing to read it as noun + verb + 把 + direct object as in Toki Pona. It feels more natural to read e as 着, which is often used as noun + verb + 着 + direct object. It does however extraneously convey a sort of progressive tense.
en: 又→和. Connecting nouns is basically the dictionary definition of 和, whereas 又 is used as a correlative conjunction for adjective sand clauses.
esun: 市, same as the Japanese transcription. I'm not sure why a hanzi character isn't provided for this.
ijo: 事→物, as in Japanese. 事 is more about abstract things like tasks.
ike: 坏 (huài) is more commonly used in Mandarin, but the current 歹 (dǎi) will probably be understood fine, and is simpler to write.
ilo: 匕 (spoon, dagger) → 具 (tool), as in Japanese
kama: the current 到 isn't a great match, but I can't think of anything better
kasi: 木→植. 木 is about wood specifically, while 植 means plant.
kulupu: both 组 and 群 (jp) are fine, though they only really mean group and don't evoke society or communal. 社 (shè) can mean both society and group, so that might be closer.
kute: 耳 (ear) → 听 (to hear, listening)
la: 喇→啦. Both are just phonetic transcriptions, but 啦 is more commonly used.
lape: 觉 can also mean to feel/think, so I think 眠 (as in Japanese) is better.
lete: 冰 (ice, cold) → 冷 (cold)
li: 哩 (phonetic transcription of li) → 又, which can be used correlatively as noun + 又 + verb + 又 + verb, or as noun + 又 + verb, which adds the meaning of also. Another option is 者, which is used in Classical Chinese as a topic marker, in the format of noun + 者 + noun + verb, but people might not be thinking of the Classical Chinese definition.
linja: 糸 (fine silk) → 线 (string, cord)
lipu: 叶 (leaf) → 纸 (paper) or 页 (page, classifier for pages or sheets)
mani: 元 (Chinese currency unit, original) → 钱 (money)
moku: 菜 (food, vegetables) → 食 (food, to eat). Using 菜 as a verb would be ridiculous.
mu: 吽 (roar of an animal, bellow of rage) → 咪 or 喵 (meow)
mute: 大 (big) → 多 (many, much)
namako: (none currently) → 余 (extra, surplus, remnant)
nanpa: 个 (classifier, individual) → 数 (number) or 第 (forms ordinal numbers, but before the number)
o: 令 (to command, to cause someone to do something) → 哎 (āi, hey, a call to get someone's attention). Another possibility is 请, which means please, or to ask someone to do something.
pakala: 打 (hit) → 破 (to break, to damage)
pali: 工 (work, noun only) → 作 (work, to do)
palisa: 支 (to support, raise, classifier for rods) → 棍, 杖, and 竿 might all be fine.
selo: 甲 (shell, nails, armor) → 皮 (skin, peel)
seme: 什 (what, but doesn't make sense as a single character, also a literary term for ten in fractions) → 何 (literary term for what, which)
sijelo: 身 is more restricted to biological bodies, so I'd suggest 体 if we want to include inorganic or more abstract bodies too
sike: 回 (return, to circle around) → 圆 (round, circle) or 圈 (ring, circle, enclose)
suli: 高 (tall, high) → 大 (big)
tan: 从 (from) → 由 (from, by means of, due to, origin, reason)
tawa: 去 (go) → 到 (arrive/reach, but also can be used as a preposition). 对 would be best to mean "to"/"for", but doesn't have the meaning of "to go".
tomo: 穴 (cave, hole) → 房 (house, building, room)
unpa: commenting on the Japanese here: 盛 (serving of food, popular) → 性 (nature, sex)
utala: 斗 (more general term for conflict) seems better than 战 (to fight, war)

Of these, I'd say 菜 for moku, 大 for mute, 甲 for selo, 回 for sike, 高 for suli, and 穴 for tomo are the most off.

Some of my suggested replacement characters are more complicated to write, but I think they're truer to the original meanings, and it'd be really cool if we could have a word-by-word transcription of Toki Pona that a Chinese speaker with no knowledge of Toki Pona could understand.

(For reference, it looks like the current Chinese character set was proposed from http://forums.tokipona.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1519
Last edited by enervation on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:19 am, edited 7 times in total.

enervation
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:49 pm

Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:21 pm

Also made an AutoHotKey script to convert Toki Pona text to hanzi after copying and pasting:

Code: Select all

#NoEnv  ; Recommended for performance and compatibility with future AutoHotkey releases.
; #Warn  ; Enable warnings to assist with detecting common errors.
SendMode Input  ; Recommended for new scripts due to its superior speed and reliability.
SetWorkingDir %A_ScriptDir%  ; Ensures a consistent starting directory.

#Persistent
return
OnClipboardChange:
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, akesi, 龟, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ante, 异, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, anu, 或, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, awen, 守, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, esun, 市, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ijo, 物, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ilo, 具, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, insa, 内, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, jaki, 污, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, jan, 人, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, jelo, 黄, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, jo, 有, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kalama, 音, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kama, 来, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kasi, 植, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kepeken, 用, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ken, 能, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kili, 果, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kipisi, 切, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kiwen, 石, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kon, 气, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ko, 膏, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kule, 色, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kute, 听, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kulupu, 组, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, lape, 眠, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, laso, 青, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, lawa, 首, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, lete, 冷, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, lili, 小, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, linja, 线, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, lipu, 纸, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, loje, 红, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, lon, 在, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, luka, 手, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, lukin, 看, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, lupa, 孔, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, mama, 母, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, mani, 钱, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, meli, 女, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, mije, 男, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, moku, 食, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, moli, 死, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, monsi, 后, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, mun, 月, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, musi, 玩, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, mute, 多, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, nanpa, 数, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, nasa, 怪, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, nasin, 道, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, nena, 山, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, nimi, 名, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, noka, 足, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, oko, 目, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, olin, 爱, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, open, 开, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, pakala, 破, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, palisa, 棍, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, pali, 作, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, pana, 给, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, pilin, 心, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, pimeja, 黑, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, pini, 末, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, pipi, 虫, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, poka, 旁, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, poki, 包, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, pona, 好, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, sama, 同, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, seli, 火, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, selo, 皮, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, seme, 何, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, sewi, 高, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, sijelo, 身, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, sike, 圆, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, sina, 你, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, sinpin, 前, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, sitelen, 画, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, sona, 知, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, soweli, 马, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, suli, 大, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, suno, 日, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, supa, 张, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, suwi, 甜, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, tan, 由, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, taso, 只, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, tawa, 到, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, telo, 水, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, tenpo, 时, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, toki, 言, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, tomo, 房, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, tuli, 三, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, tu, 二, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, unpa, 性, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, utala, 斗, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, uta, 口, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, walo, 白, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, wan, 一, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, waso, 鸟, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, wawa, 力, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, weka, 脱, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, wile, 要, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, anpa, 下, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kala, 鱼, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ala, 不, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ale, 全, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ali, 全, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ike, 坏, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, kin, 也, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, len, 布, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, sin, 新, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ona, 他, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ni, 这, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ma, 土, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, la, 啦, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, li, 又, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, mi, 我, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, pi, 的, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, po, 四, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, en, 和, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, a, 啊, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, e, 着, All
StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, o, 哎, All
; StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ` , , All
; StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ., 。, All
; StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, `,, ,, All
; StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, :, :, All
; StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, (, (, All
; StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, ), ), All
; StringReplace, clipboard, clipboard, `;, ;, All


This has some weird effects if any of the words you copy aren't Toki Pona words, btw, since I'm not sure how to get word boundary detection through regex to work.
Last edited by enervation on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.

enervation
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:49 pm

Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:40 pm

Here's the first twenty verses of the Sermon on the Mount:

人 Jesu 又 看 着 组 又 到 高山 又 下 着 后他. 人他 又 来 到 旁他. 人 Jesu 又 给 着 知 到 人. 他 又 言 着 这:
人多 又 知 着 这: “内我 又 坏.” 人这 又 好. 首 的 人高 Jawe 又 的 他.
人多 又 心 坏. 人高 Jawe 又 好 着 心他.
人多 又 知 着 这: “我 下.” 人这 又 来 有 着 土 由 人高 Jawe.
人多 又 要 好. 人高 Jawe 又 好多 到 人这.
人多 又 好 到 人异 啦 人这 又 好. 作坏异 的 人这 又 小 到 人高 Jawe.
人多 又 要 不 知 着 坏. 人这 又 在 旁 的 人高 Jawe.
人多 又 要 末 着 斗. 人这 又 人小 的 人高 Jawe.
人多 又 好. 只 人坏 又 破 着 人好 这. 首 的 人高 Jawe 又 的 人好这.
人 又 坏 到 你. 他 又 言 着 物坏 到 你 由 这: 你 知 着 我. 只 你 好多. 哎 心 好. 哎 心 好多 由 这: 物好 又 的 你 在 土高. 时末 啦 人多 又 坏 到 人好异.
你 甜 到 人全. 只 甜 又 脱 啦 你 能不 新 着 他. 甜 又 脱 啦 你 能不 用 着 他. 人 又 给 着 他 到 道 在 下 的 足 人.
你 日. 人 的 土全 又 看 着 你. 你 土房 在 高山.
人 又 给不 着 日 在 下 包. 他 又 给 着 他 在 棍大. 他 又 日 着 房.
同 啦 你 日 到 人全. 你 好 啦 人异 又 看 着 你 又 言 着 这: 人高 Jawe 又 好.
我 要不 破 着 首 Moses 着 知 的 人言知. 我 要不 破 着 知 他. 我 要 在 着 他. 土高 和 土这 又 在 啦 首高全 又 守. 全 又 末 啦 首高又 末 也.
能 啦 你 作不 着 物小 的 首高. 能 啦 你 言 着 这 到 人异: “哎 作不 着 物小 的 首高.” 你 言 着 这 啦 你 小 在 土高. 只 你 作 着 物全 的 首高又 给 着 知 的 首高 到 人异 啦 你 大 在 土高.

Some thoughts after trying to read this:
- It takes a bit to get used to adjectives coming after nouns.
- tawa when used as a preposition is much closer to 对 than 去 (which can't really be used as a preposition), but 对 doesn't have the meaning of "to go". Maybe we can use 到 as a compromise?
- pi means of, which sort of works the opposite direction of 的

Overall though, it's very cool how much of this makes sense.

janKipo
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Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby janKipo » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:11 am

The discussion of ‘supa’ seems to be that for ‘tan’, which is missing.

enervation
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:49 pm

Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:25 am

Good catch, just edited! I can't think of any good translations for supa, so I guess it's fine to stick with 张.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Location: Berlin

Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:02 pm

enervation wrote:Good catch, just edited! I can't think of any good translations for supa, so I guess it's fine to stick with 张.


I'd suggest 表.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%A1%A8

Sounds more like "table" and "surface" to me.

I have a preference for classic Chinese characters, BTW. ;)
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

enervation
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:49 pm

Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby enervation » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:46 pm

I really like how Classical Chinese often uses simpler, less pictophonetic characters, and that each one is just one character long. However, I definitely don't know enough Classical Chinese to accurately make a character set for Toki Pona.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure 表 only means surface as in exterior or facade, and table as in the tables you make in Excel, at least in modern Mandarin.

I should link to a proposal about a year ago that strove for more archaic characters: http://forums.tokipona.org/viewtopic.php?t=2689
  • Its use of 龙 (dragon) for akesi is pretty badass I gotta say.
  • We could use 之 instead of 的 to make the character simpler and improve compatibility with kanji, without sacrificing comprehensibility to Chinese readers unfamiliar with Classical Chinese.

jan Jojanese
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Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:25 am
Location: ma Onkon

Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby jan Jojanese » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:50 am

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2549

a classical chinese toki pona system which is very good
mi pilin pona tawa ijo mijomi ni

jan Seloki
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:51 pm

Re: Proposed revision to Chinese character set

Postby jan Seloki » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:25 pm

enervation wrote:Hey everyone!

I don't know much Toki Pona, but as I was looking through http://tokipona.net/tp/classicwordlist.aspx, I'd like to suggest an alternative character set that more closely matches the meaning of the characters in modern Mandarin Chinese.

ante: 变 (change) → 异 (different, differ)
e: 把→着. The way 把 is used in Chinese is noun + 把 + direct object + verb, and it feels confusing to read it as noun + verb + 把 + direct object as in Toki Pona. It feels more natural to read e as 着, which is often used as noun + verb + 着 + direct object. It does however extraneously convey a sort of progressive tense.
en: 又→和. Connecting nouns is basically the dictionary definition of 和, whereas 又 is used as a correlative conjunction for adjective sand clauses.
esun: 市, same as the Japanese transcription. I'm not sure why a hanzi character isn't provided for this.
ijo: 事→物, as in Japanese. 事 is more about abstract things like tasks.
ike: 坏 (huài) is more commonly used in Mandarin, but the current 歹 (dǎi) will probably be understood fine, and is simpler to write.
ilo: 匕 (spoon, dagger) → 具 (tool), as in Japanese
kama: the current 到 isn't a great match, but I can't think of anything better
kasi: 木→植. 木 is about wood specifically, while 植 means plant.
kulupu: both 组 and 群 (jp) are fine, though they only really mean group and don't evoke society or communal. 社 (shè) can mean both society and group, so that might be closer.
kute: 耳 (ear) → 听 (to hear, listening)
la: 喇→啦. Both are just phonetic transcriptions, but 啦 is more commonly used.
lape: 觉 can also mean to feel/think, so I think 眠 (as in Japanese) is better.
lete: 冰 (ice, cold) → 冷 (cold)
li: 哩 (phonetic transcription of li) → 又, which can be used correlatively as noun + 又 + verb + 又 + verb, or as noun + 又 + verb, which adds the meaning of also. Another option is 者, which is used in Classical Chinese as a topic marker, in the format of noun + 者 + noun + verb, but people might not be thinking of the Classical Chinese definition.
linja: 糸 (fine silk) → 线 (string, cord)
lipu: 叶 (leaf) → 纸 (paper) or 页 (page, classifier for pages or sheets)
mani: 元 (Chinese currency unit, original) → 钱 (money)
moku: 菜 (food, vegetables) → 食 (food, to eat). Using 菜 as a verb would be ridiculous.
mu: 吽 (roar of an animal, bellow of rage) → 咪 or 喵 (meow)
mute: 大 (big) → 多 (many, much)
namako: (none currently) → 余 (extra, surplus, remnant)
nanpa: 个 (classifier, individual) → 数 (number) or 第 (forms ordinal numbers, but before the number)
o: 令 (to command, to cause someone to do something) → 哎 (āi, hey, a call to get someone's attention). Another possibility is 请, which means please, or to ask someone to do something.
pakala: 打 (hit) → 破 (to break, to damage)
pali: 工 (work, noun only) → 作 (work, to do)
palisa: 支 (to support, raise, classifier for rods) → 棍, 杖, and 竿 might all be fine.
selo: 甲 (shell, nails, armor) → 皮 (skin, peel)
seme: 什 (what, but doesn't make sense as a single character, also a literary term for ten in fractions) → 何 (literary term for what, which)
sijelo: 身 is more restricted to biological bodies, so I'd suggest 体 if we want to include inorganic or more abstract bodies too
sike: 回 (return, to circle around) → 圆 (round, circle) or 圈 (ring, circle, enclose)
suli: 高 (tall, high) → 大 (big)
tan: 从 (from) → 由 (from, by means of, due to, origin, reason)
tawa: 去 (go) → 到 (arrive/reach, but also can be used as a preposition). 对 would be best to mean "to"/"for", but doesn't have the meaning of "to go".
tomo: 穴 (cave, hole) → 房 (house, building, room)
unpa: commenting on the Japanese here: 盛 (serving of food, popular) → 性 (nature, sex)
utala: 斗 (more general term for conflict) seems better than 战 (to fight, war)

Of these, I'd say 菜 for moku, 大 for mute, 甲 for selo, 回 for sike, 高 for suli, and 穴 for tomo are the most off.

Some of my suggested replacement characters are more complicated to write, but I think they're truer to the original meanings, and it'd be really cool if we could have a word-by-word transcription of Toki Pona that a Chinese speaker with no knowledge of Toki Pona could understand.

(For reference, it looks like the current Chinese character set was proposed from http://forums.tokipona.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1519

Some of those suggestions may be fine, others don't make sense. 着 is look/see (lukin), & 把 is hold/grasp which makes more since for 'e' than look/see. 穴 was chosen for tomo over 房 because it is simpler & because tomo means any kind of structure that you would be inside of, not just a house so the latter is more specific than the word itself implies, & more complex to read/write. What's interesting is 穴 is used for 'lupa' in the kanji/japanese system. 到 is arrive/reach so it's more fitting for kama than 去 which means 'go'/'leave'.
人り有え人上ら人り要無。


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