jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:03 pm

You can dodge the sentient agent with another pseudopassive; lupa... li kama pini poka kalama ...' or something along that line ('kepeken' doesn't seem right here -- but then neither does 'poka')
I'm not sure 'sike pi pakala tu' would be taken (easily) to mean "broken in two', but I am not sure what would. How do we say "half"? No clues: 'wan (pi) tan tu'? 'pakala sama'? (a stretch). In this case maybe 'sike pi pini ala' "unfinished circles"?

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:30 am

Oh, that makes sense. A door can't close anything; but either someone can close the door, or the door can become closed. I'm sure I've seen "pakala tu" somewhere, but I can't find it now. "sike pi pini ala" seems reasonable - I'll edit it in above.

jan Alapu Tanpeto* li pali pi nasin ni: ona li sona ala e ni: ona li kama lon nasin ni: nimi ona en len noka suli ona en ali ona li ike tawa jan pi nasin ni. jan Tanpeto li lukin kepeken luka lon insa len selo suli. ona li wile kama jo e ijo. taso ona li sona kin e ni: jan** li lukin e ona. tan ni la tenpo lili la jan Tanpeto li sewi e lawa sama li lukin e soweli pi linja uta. soweli ni li awen lukin wawa e jan Tanpeto lon pini ante nasin. tan ona li lukin e soweli ni la ona li musi***. ona li kalama pona musi lili li toki pi kalama lili e ni: 'mi pilin lon tenpo pini la mi sona e ni."

jan Tanpeto li kama jo e ijo pi lukin sama. ijo ni li lon insa pi poki insa. ijo ni li ilo seli, pi palisa lili pi kon jaki, pi kiwen mani, lukin.**** jan Tanpeto li open e ilo ni li pilin e ilo ni kepeken kalama kiwen. suno nasin poka li kama suno ala*****. jan ni li pilin kin e ilo ni. suno nasin ante li kama suno ala. tenpo luka luka tu la jan ni li pilin e ilo Suno Pini******. suno tu pi lili mute li suno taso lon nasin ali. suno ni li oka pi soweli pi linja uta. soweli ni li lukin e jan ni. jan li lukin tan lupa lukin sama la meli Taseli kin pi oka wawa li lukin la ona li ken ala lukin e ijo lon nasin. jan Tanpeto li pana e ilo Suno Pini lon insa pi len selo suli sama. ona li tawa tawa tomo nanpa tu tu. lon ni la ona li anpa e monsi lon sinpin kiwen lon poka soweli pi linja uta. jan Tanpeto li lukin ala e soweli ni. taso tanpo lili pini la ona li toki tawa soweli ni.

* Thinking about it, I think "Tanpeto" is closer in intent than "Tunpeleto". Correct number of syllables, apart from anything else. And, given TP's 'u' is as in 'food', I think 'a' is closer.
** jan? Not really. It's not a person that's watching him, it's the cat (...although the cat is, of course, a person in this case). But soweli is too specific, and ijo just seems weird.
*** There's an additional "for some reason" in the original. I'd like to have a trailing "tan seme.", but I'm concerned that would force it to be a question. Would it?
**** I'm aware this is a deeply complicated noun phrase, and I'm not sure the "lukin" belongs at the end. I could happily see putting it after the "sewi", if that's better.
***** There's an addition "with a little pop" in the original. Onomatopoeia really doesn't work in TP, and I haven't been able to divine the nature of a "pop" well enough to translate it. Maybe "with the noise of a circle breaking" would do, but it doesn't seem quite right.
****** The object gets a capitalised pseudo-name in the original. I don't know if it can in TP too.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:24 pm

"Albus Dumbledore [I like this form] acted as though he didn't know that he had arrived on a street where his name and boots and everything about him were bad for people on this street. Dumbledore looked with ['kepeken' seems odd here sine this isn't instrument to his looking, but 'poka' is clearly wrong. It is just the way he is standing while looking, I suppose, but don't know how to put that.] his hands [prob 'pi'] inside his cloak. He wanted to get something. But he already knew that somebody saw it. So, for a while [? tenpo lili pini'? 'after a little while, soon'?], Dumbledore raised his head and looked at the cat. The cat continued to stare at Dumbledore at the other end of the street [the cat or Dumbledore?]. When his cause saw the cat, he was amused. [something is wrong here, but I am not sure what is meant. maybe just drop 'tan'? 'tan ijo' at the end"because of something" unspecified] He lightly entertainingly good sounded [is this aimed at "whistled"? maybe 'kalama e musi lili' or some such] and whispered, "When I think in the past, I know this". [prob 'pilin e ijo pi tenpo pini' "remember the past/think about the past}

Dumbledore got the thing of his view(ing).[mirror? 'ilo pi lukin sama'?] This thing was inside an interior pocket. The thing was a hot tool/ fire maker of little sticks of vile smell of gold looking [I have no idea how 'lukin' is meant to fit in here. As to your note, there is no 'sewi' for it to come after, so I suppose you mean 'seli' so 'ijo pi seli lukin' "a fiery looking thing (made) of vile smelling little sticks/rods and of gold" I suppose you want 'lukin' to actually modify all the description, so maybe 'ijo ni li sama lukin ilo seli....'] Dumbledore opened this tool and touch it with a stone noise[? 'kiwen kalama' "bell' or some such thing?] The nearby street lights went out [or just 'kama pini'] ['kepeken kalama lili'?] He still touched the gizmo . The other street light went out. Twelve times he pressed the Lights-Out.[su[pposedly caps are only for unofficial names that are not just tp, but we do need to deal with names that are tp, like lipu Utala en Utala Ala'. I'm not sure of the best way to do this and none of the textbooks offer a clue.] Only few of the two lights [? 'suno pi mute lili, pi tu taso'?] ['taso' goes here, not after the verb] shone on the whole street. These lights were the eyes of the cat. [now I don't understand the earlier piece at all]. The cat looked at the man. If someone looked from their window, if even Mrs. Dursley with her good eyesight looked, she could not see anything on the street [one of those hard 'pi' or not cases]. Dumbledore put Lights-Out into his cloak. He went to [only one 'tawa'] house number 22. There he sat on the wall next to the cat. Dumbledore did not look at the cat. But in a while ['tenpo'] he spoke to it."

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:00 pm

Hm. Started well, but fell away quickly. Here's the usual what-I-was-aiming-for:

I had high hopes for "li lukin kepeken luka" - "luka" is the instrument to his looking; he's "rummaging in his cloak, looking for something". Perhaps I should have used "alasa", hunting; but that seems to imply a bit to much tracking and meat etc. Either verb is a stretch; I guess its a question of which stretches less. Perhaps "li alasa (kepeken) luka" would have been better.

Wrong referent for the "ona" in the next sentence - "But he did seem to realise he was being watched". I'll specify, to remove the ambiguity. This "tenpo lili" is a "suddenly".

It's the cat at the other end of the street (although, relativistically speaking, it doesn't matter...).

Yeah, looking back at "tan ona li....", I can see it doesn't work. "For some reason, the sight of the cat seemed to amuse him". Probably I need a rephrase: "ona li musi tan ijo ni: ona li lukin e soweli ni."?

Laughter seems to be very hard to describe. Dumbledore "chuckled". And then we have a colloquialism that I thought I'd got close to, but was admittedly difficult. I was aiming for something like "If I had thought, I would have known this (would be the case)" - originally, "I should have known".

"thing of his viewing" should be "thing he was looking for". I imagine, if the earlier sentence had worked, this would have fallen out. Obviously, it becomes "alasa" if the former does.

With regards to moving the "lukin", I meant so that it became an "ilo seli lukin, pi..." - "looked like a fire-tool of...". The object in question looks like a "silver cigarette lighter", cigarettes being the vile-smelling sticks, which at least came across ok-ish...

"Click". Aiming for a hard noise, but that was probably doomed to failure. Simply "kalama lili" may have been good enough. There's an interesting balance to be struck, I'm finding, between clarity and interest. You don't need to know it clicked, and that would remove the confusion; but it would be duller if it didn't. Of course, I'm straining at the bounds of what TP is meant for in any case!

I'm unsure of word order in "Two tiny lights". I assume that's what your "suno pi lili mute, pi tu taso" is providing? "These lights were the eyes of the cat" is correct - what earlier bit does it break?

It's just struck me that "tawa" is odd in not needing a "tawa" after it in most cases. It means that "tawa" must mean "to go to" all by itself. Which is fine, I can deal with that, I just hadn't noticed it. In this particular case, he actually "sets off towards number 4" (not 22), which is actually why the second "tawa" is there. Can I do that?

Bah, tenpo tanpo typo :)

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:36 pm

Yes, 'alasa' is definitely clearer, since 'lukin' is tied pretty much to the eyes (see Sonja's collapse of it with 'oko').
'tenpo lili' is a real problem, since it can mean "a few times" or "in a short time", as you intended. The temporals need some work.
Who at which end of the street does matter. If the seer is being located, then the PP is unmarked; if the seen is, it needs 'pi'. Just grammar.
'tan ijo la' would do for "for some reason". but you don't need 'ijo' in te revision.
probably safest with 'sama lukin ilo seli pi tawa palisa ...'
hard to do clicks in tp since there are no final stops.
I don't (on later thought) like 'pi tu taso' since numbers don't take 'pi'. I think the "dodge the messy stuff ('pi' phrases)" rule applies and you go with 'suno tu taso pi lili mute'.
None of the prepositions need to be repeated: He placed it on the box 'mije li lon poki e ona', though you can do 'lon e ona lon poki' as well. Similarly with 'tawa' and so on.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:36 am

Ok, all good stuff. Any thoughts on "chuckled" and "I should have known"? Those are the trickiest for me.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:08 am

'a a a lili'? "mi wile sona'? (+ 'lon tenpo pini'?) not very satisfying.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:40 am

Can I really "a a a" as a verb? "ona li a a a lili"? Neat, if so. I agree "mi wile sona lon tenpo pini" isn't ideal (I always forget "wile" can be "should" as well as "want to"). Maybe "mi ken sona (e ni) lon tenpo pini" would be better, if less exactly similar - "I could have known (this)".

jan Alapu Tanpeto li pali pi nasin ni: ona li sona ala e ni: ona li kama lon nasin ni: nimi ona en len noka suli ona en ali ona li ike tawa jan pi nasin ni. jan Tanpeto li alasa kepeken luka lon insa len selo suli. ona li wile kama jo e ijo. taso ona li sona kin e ni: jan li lukin e jan Tanpeto. tan ni la tenpo lili la jan Tanpeto li sewi e lawa sama li lukin e soweli pi linja uta. soweli ni li awen lukin wawa e jan Tanpeto, lon pini ante nasin. ona li musi tan ni: ona li lukin e soweli ni. ona li a a a lili li toki pi kalama lili e ni: 'mi ken sona e ni lon tenpo pini."

jan Tanpeto li kama jo e ijo pi alasa sama. ijo ni li lon insa pi poki insa. ijo ni li sama lukin ilo seli, pi palisa lili pi kon jaki, pi kiwen mani. jan Tanpeto li open e ilo ni li pilin e ilo ni kepeken kalama lili. suno nasin poka wan li kama pini kepeken kalama lili. jan ni li pilin kin e ilo ni. suno nasin ante wan li kama pini. tenpo luka luka tu la jan ni li pilin e ilo Suno Pini. suno tu taso pi lili mute li suno lon nasin ali. suno ni li oka pi soweli pi linja uta. soweli ni li lukin e jan ni. jan li lukin tan lupa lukin sama la meli Taseli kin pi oka wawa li lukin la ona li ken ala lukin e ijo lon nasin. jan Tanpeto li pana e ilo Suno Pini lon insa pi len selo suli sama. ona li tawa tomo nanpa tu tu. lon ni la ona li anpa e monsi lon sinpin kiwen lon poka soweli pi linja uta. jan Tanpeto li lukin ala e soweli ni. taso tenpo lili pini la ona li toki tawa soweli ni.


jan Tanpeto li toki e ni: 'o jan pi pana sona Makonaka, tenpo pini la mi pilin kama ala e ni: mi lukin e sina lon ni.'

ona li sike tawa soweli ni pi kule linja. taso soweli ni li awen ala. jan Tanpeto li uta pona tawa meli. meli ni li musi ala lukin li len e ilo lukin pi linja tu tu*. ilo lukin ni li sama lukin kule lon poka oko pi soweli ni. meli ni li len kin e len selo suli. len ni li laso jalo sama kiwen pi mani suli. linja pi meli ni li pimeja li sama sike lili. meli ni li jaki lukin sama ni: kon li tawa ona.**

meli ni li toki e ni: "tan seme la sina sona e ni: jan mi li mi?"

"o jan pona pi pana sona, tenpo ala la mi lukin e ni: soweli pi linja uta li anpa e monsi sama palisa kin."

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li toki e ni: "sina anpa e monsi lon sinpin pi kiwen loje lon tenpo suno ali*** la sina sama palisa."

"tenpo suno ali? taso sina ken musi tan ijo pona. mi pini tawa ni. tenpo ni la mi lukin e musi moku mute e musi mute pi jan mute."

* Odd that only circles are easily described. I see from searching that "leko" used to do this, but is now removed from the language.
** Ok, I'm grasping here. The original is "She looked distinctly ruffled". Distinguishing that from all the other ways you might not look perfect is tricky, and I'm not even sure "kon li tawa ona" makes sense.
*** How do you distinguish "all day" from "every day"? Can you?

This conversation's going to go on a while. We'll take it in chunks, I think.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:44 pm

"Dumbledore said "Professor McGonigal [I forget the English],I didn't expect to see you here. [I don't quite see how 'pilin kama' gets to "expect" but the context sorta forces it. A case of understanding even if not computing.]
He turned to the animal with hairy colors [? stripes, "linear colors"] but that creature didn't stay. Dumbledore smiled [? but nice if right] at a woman. The woman did not look amused and wore quadrifocal glasses [? ahah! the note suggests "square". I'd use 'leko' and the Hell with it, but then I am now branded as a person out to destroy the purity of tp. maybe 'pi poka tu tu' "quadrilateral" 'leko' was suggested at some point but seems never to have been used.] These glasses looked like the color [pi] on the sides of [pi] the eyes of that animal. The woman [kin] also wore [no 'kin'] a cloak. This garment was orange like gold. The woman's hair was dark like little circles[?]. She was as disgusting looking as air going to her [or "them" those circles. The note doesn't help much. Since she doesn't have feathers, "ruffled" is tricky. I'd be tempted to just use the general 'pakala' and let it go.]
She said "How did you know that was me?"
"Dear Professor, I never saw a cat sit just like a stick [?]"
Professor Magonigle [still don't have it, can I just say Maggie Smith?] said "If you sit on the front of a red stone [somehow "on a brick wall"] every day [or "all day", as you note. We need a "during" as opposed to an 'at' here, but we don't have one.], you are like a stick [maybe, 'kama sama palisa' "I gradually got so"].
"All day? But you can play because of good things [?]. I finished going here. Now I see many feasts and much enjoyment for many people." "

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:13 am

Not bad at all. It's McGonagall, but I won't object to Maggie Smith :lol:

We had expectations earlier, during the Dursley's conversation in the living room. We never reached a perfect conclusion there, but "pilin kama" was in the mix.

Stripes, yes; strictly "the tabby cat". A case where duplication may actually work because the meanings would be different: "kule linja linja" as "lined hair colour". Or perhaps "linja pi kule linja" for "hair of lined colour". Not sure either is actually superior, though.

It is "smiled". "poka tu tu" is probably better, yes. Her cloak is emerald green, "green like a very expensive stone"; a case, probably, of misreading, since "laso jelo" (oh, typo) can't be "orange". Her black hair is in "a tight bun", which I tried to make as "like a small ball". Maybe an additional "lon lawa ona sewi" - "on top of her head" would help?

"Sit just like a stick" is good enough - the original is "sit so stiffly". I like "sina kama sama palisa", it's definitely better. I'm not wedded to "brick", so I could go back to "sinpin kiwen" for just "wall". Or maybe "sinpin kiwen loje", "red wall".

That just leaves Dumbledore's last ponouncements, which are close but at most half a cigar. "But you can play because of good things" is a perfect literal reading, and quite close; but the sense of "You could have been celebrating" is a little lost. Part of that's a tense issue. Perhaps I needed "taso sina pini ken...". Then the second half again is close, but misses the exact sense of "I (must have) passed a dozen feast and parties on my way here". In particular, the time reference has gone wrong. Would "mi pini tawa ni. tenpo pi tawa mi la..." work?


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