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jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona - Page 14 - Toki Pona Forums

jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:44 pm

A first! With the exception of your tweak of 'pali' for 'lukin', and the possible cheat at "li anpa en li sewi, e", that's all close enough that I don't think any changes are needed!

I'll just carry on with fresh stuff next time I have time :D.

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:12 am


janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:39 pm

Prof. McGonagal took a handkerchief and her eyes with it (prep phrases after the DO) under her glasses. Dumbledore breathed hugely (sighed? snorted? sniffed?) to the wise inside of his hill (I suppose "through his nose, but I don't get 'sona') and got his gold watch and looked at it. This was a very strange watch. It had twelve hands(?) but it did not have numbers. A few large moons (or stars, I suppose) moved on the surface (or cover or case or....) of this watch. But, in fact, Dumbledore knew (?) this watch because he placed it in the side of his cloak (insa pi poka (poki?) pi len sama')and said "I want Hagrid to have been here . I think that Hagrid told you that I was here. Is that right?" (Kakuti?, want something harsh sounding)

"Right." said Prof. McGonagal, "but I don't think that you came to say this reason to me: you are here" ("You didn't come to tell me why you are here", but it is convoluted somehow)

"I came here because I gave Harry to his aunt ('meli sama pi mama ona') and her husband. No these two are Harry's only relatives" ('jan sama' tends to be siblings -- and first cousins -- don't ask why -- so 'jan pi kulupu mama' is more general. fussiness.)

"Are you (assuming 'sina') saying ... You *cannot* talk to the people in this house?" (those intonation questions are still a bit of a problem, but surely exist and need to be accepted) said Prof. McGonagal, loudly. She sprang to her feet and pointed (I like 'ni' here, but 'luka' works fine) to number 22. She said "Dumbledore, you can't. All today I watched these people. You cannot hunt (harvest???) two people so different from us. This two have a son. I saw that boy kick (?) his parents in every way. He screamed because he wanted candy. Harry Potter can't come to stay here."

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:25 pm

Grrr, a couple of typos got in the way of the meaning there, and I didn't have time to proofread before posting. let's correct those up front:

* jan Tanpeto li kon suli tawa insa nena sama
* lon insa pi poki len sama
* sina toki ala e... (as you suspected); and then

Right, that dealt with:

I'll fix the location of the 'kepeken' phrase. I imagine that's a rule I'll forget often.

Hopefully, with typo corrected, it's clearer that Dumbledore gives a huge sniff - or something similar, anyway.

Yes, "hands" on the watch - good. The "large moons" are planets. Even TP should have a way of distinguishing, since primitive societies did tend to notice that the planets were different. Perhaps "mun tawa", to reflect the "wandering" nature?

Dumbledore understands the watch. "sona pona"? I quite like Kakuti.

Is "mi pilin ala e ni: sina kama toki e ni: sina li lon ni tan seme" any clearer?

Not "talk to the people in this house", but "talk about..." - I think that's a misread ('e', not 'tawa')? Number 4, as well.

Not "hunt", but "find". The end result of hunting, but not quite "looking, seeing" either. Tricky. Yes, "kick". Not "in every way", but "all along this street" - ambiguity of "nasin", but I'd hoped the "ni" would help?

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:50 pm

Wow! Fast turnaround!
I think I sorta figured out most of the typos, though I couldn't resist taking them literally for the nonce (OCD or arrant pedantry).

The rule la Subject Verb DO PP is thoroughly enshrined and more and more frequently violated at the end. I expect it will fade eventually, but for now .... Part of the reason for it was the lack of 'pi' with PPs modifying heads directly and that is gone. So, you can now get away with it by using 'pi' to the verb (but why bother?).

I like 'mun tawa' (although the moon and artificial satellites tawa, just not stars).

Sorry about missing a standard meaning of 'sona'.

No, it is worse, because it raises the question about indirect questions (a SAE calque, I think). 'mi pilin ala e ni: sina kama tawa ni: sina toki e ijo pi an ni: sina lon ni' (I forgot to note the 'sina li lon'). That is just to purely tp to be usable, I think, in spite of all the "break it down to basic sentences" advice. 'sina kama tawa toki pi tan ni: sina lon ni.' seems enough to me now.

"talk about x" is 'toki e ijo {x}' ({} activate the 'pi' rule). 'talk to' is 'toki tawa' but is the more common misuse of 'toki e' (I think, but that may just be from the last few days, the other is common, too). The 22 is definitely from reading this week's run of nanpa suli squibs (= 8, by the way).

"find" is generally -- especially as paired with 'alasa e' -- 'kama lukin e' "come to see'

Sorry, I just missed the 'ni' in 'lon nasin ni ali'.

So, a lot of misses on my part, nothing too terrible on yours (typos don't count -- a rule I have to make for my own protection). "find" as 'kama lukin' is old (pre 2009) and apparently obvious, since other come up with it de novo. 'toki e ijo {x}' is old but one of those group decisions from 2007-9 that no one seems to come up with again on their own, although it is clear when pointed out. Untangling the collapse of a messy string of 'ni' clauses into a relatively simple expression is a real pain sometimes.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:33 am

Last edited by janChowlett on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:46 pm

(The problem is that there are a dozen ways to parse this bit and none of them seem to make sense in the context. What was it supposed to mean?)

"This is the prefect place for Harry" said Dumbledore in a way blocking any argument. "His aunt and uncle can teach him everything over the next several years. I have written them letters ['sitelen toki' works for e-mails, so probably also for paper -- or parchment -- letters]"
"Letters?" said Prof. McGonagall weakly. She sat down again on the stone wall. "Dumbledore, do you think you can teach all this by letters? These two people will never understand Harry. Many people will know about Harry. In the future Harry will be like [no 'pi'] the god/priest of music/literature [or, with 'pi', "the kin of ...". Neither make a lot of sense.] If today is called "Harry Potter Day" in the future, I won't think the name is crazy. In the future, many book will be written about Harry. Every child in our world will come to know his name."

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:40 pm

(Ah, fair point. The original is actually "I don't suppose you're going to tell me why you're here, of all places?". I was rendering it down to just "I don't suppose you're going to tell me why you're here".)

The back-translation here, short as it is, is pretty spot on :). I'll adopt "sitelen toki" - written speech works, indeed.

"Many people will know about" => "He'll be famous". I don't see one can get closer.

The most tricky bit is "jan Ari li sama pi jan sewi pi sitelen musi." => "He'll be a legend". Literally, I wanted something like "he'll be like the awe-inspiring people of stories". Perhaps "suli, important" would have been better than "sewi", but I was trying to avoid "large".

Otherwise, bang on!

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:04 pm

'mi pilin ala e ni: sina (kama) toki e ni tawa mi: sina lon ni tan seme.' (or, maybe better, 'tawa seme')
Yes, that is about as good for "famous" as we can manage.
The problem with 'jan sewi' is that it was overused for "priest" and "god" and so is hard to see as its components. 'jan suli', on the other hand, is well entrenches ad "celebrity' (as well as "fatso" but I expect the context would take care of that) And 'sitelen musi' is used for sheet music. And, of course, the 'pi' sets up a whole bunch of other associations (kinfolk, etc.). 'sama jan suli pi utala pi tenpo pini' "equal to the great men of past wars", or so (or you could throw in a 'toki' "tales of past wars"). Nothing quite gets it, though.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:38 am



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