jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:40 pm

jan Tepan always provides some interesting comments'
"too" as in "excessive" is, most naturally 'namako' for those who use that word. 'mute ike' tends to be "too little" rather than "too much", just from the nature of the human condition, where the usual bad amount is deprivation rather than excess (when "enough" is a good amount -- when the quantity is of undesirables, I suppose a whole different pattern comes into play, although we still say "enough" at least).

'ante' good point. 'ante' "to change" is transitive, not reflexive. Did I miss that? Ouch!

the ambiguity of 'pini' again, but, of course, the point that he has lost the power is till in force here (I think).

I personally don't believe 'kute' means "obey" and think that "I hear and obey" are two commitments, not one and so 'mi kute li kute ala' is a contradictions, just like (another Sonja proposal) 'mi lukinli lukin ala, e ni' is (supposedly "I am looking for it but don't see it").

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:03 am

Ok, thanks for the advices (not a word).

Following some discussion I've seen on FB, can I use "nena kute" to clarify "ears" (and hence is 'len seli pi nena kute' clearer)?

I think I like the phrasing for "The last time...", so I will adopt that. "pali e pona" is at least safe, if not as nuanced as "noble" - that then presumably leads to "sina pali kin e pona la" for "You do too much good"; or, based off jan Tepan's suggestion and your issue with it, "sina pali pi mute mute ike e pona la" - "You do problematic-lots of good"; or "sina pali pi namako ike e pona" similarly (there appear to be no negative connotations natively on 'namako', hence the 'ike').

I think "tenpo pini la jan Wotemoli li jo" is fine here. Dumbledore is only saying he "had" power, not making much claim about whether he still does (spoiler: he quite possibly may think he does).

For "admiration", I was trying to couch it as "feeling good towards him because of wanting to act the same way", which I think should be doable if we can find the right order of words.

Will aim for markups and new translation tomorrow & Friday; been a busy week so far.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:32 am

jan Chowlett o,

In case you mean something to cover the ears, "len pi nena kute" or "len kute" should be enough. Many "lens" have the purpose of keeping body parts "seli" without the need to say "seli".

If you want to express "noble" as something like "of awe-inspiring deed", then "pi pali sewi" could work. "sewi" is often associated with heaven and God, but it's also simply "awe-inspiring".

→ "sina pali sewi pi mute ike." (You're bad-much acting awe-inspiringly.)

I'm not sure how this would sound in real-life. It just sounds plausible to me. Your suggestion with "namako" (which is synonymous to "sin" in pu) leads me to:

→ "sina pali sewi pi sin ike." (You're bad-additionally acting awe-inspiringly.)

I haven't thought of "sin ike" that much yet, though. By the way, maybe "pali sewi" is still good for "admirable deed", therefore:

→ "tawa mi la ona li pali sewi." (I think he's acting awe-inspiringly. I admire him.)

jan Tepan
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:59 pm

'namako' (nor 'too' for that matter) doesn't have a "bad" connotation, merely a "more than enough" sense as seen in such side meanings as "ornament", "spice", "lagniappe" and so on. I think 'ike' anywhere in "too good", for example, is misplaced. 'sin' doesn't have these connotations, focusing rather on being an addition without any sense of whether what is added to is already full or not. 'sin' also has the sense of "fresh", "just created" ("added to the items in the world"), with a positive connotation perhaps (but not for a true conservative, of course).

'sewi' does seem to be capable of playing a role in "noble"

'len kute' does seem to be enough for "ear muffs". after all the sorting has been done (though they might be ear buds as well -- just playing devil's advocate).

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:14 am

janChowlett wrote:nimi "mi sona e ni: sina sona ala e tan ni," li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin tu. nasin ni nanpa wan li ni: ona li pilin ike pi utala lili tawa jan Tanpeto. nasin ni nanpa tu li ni: tawa ona la jan Tanpeto li pali sewi. jan Makonaka li toki kin e ni: "taso sina ante. jan ali li sona e ni: jan Sina-Sona- -- a pona kin la jan Wotemoli -- li monsuta tan sina taso."

nimi "sina toki e ijo pona mi," li toki pi jan Tanpeto pi nasin pi utala ala. kin la "tenpo pini la jan Wotemoli li jo e wawa ni: tenpo ala la mi kama jo e wawa sama."

"sina kama jo ala tan ni taso: tan sina - a - sina pali sewi namako la sina kepeken ala e wawa ni!"

"tan pimeja li lon la mi pilin pona. sinpin mi li loje. tenpo nanpa pini la sinpin mi li kama loje ni la jan Ponwi li toki e ni tawa mi: len kute mi li pona tawa ona."

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li lukin wawa lon tenpo lili tawa jan Tanpeto li toki e ni: "waso pi tenpo pimeja pi tawa kon li mute lili; taso sin li mute mute li tawa kon. sina sona ala sona e toki pi jan ali? mije ni li tawa weka tan seme? ona li pini pali tan seme?"


jan pi pana sona Makonaka li pali pi nasin ni: ona li wile pi mute ali, toki* e ijo ni. ijo ni li tan ni lon: ona li awen lon sinpin kiwen lete lon tenpo suno ni ali. ona li lukin wawa kipisi e jan Tanpeto. tenpo pi ona soweli la tenpo kin pi ona meli la ona li lukin pi wawa sama lon tenpo ala. ni li sona pona: ijo pi toki pi "jan ali" la ona li pilin ala e ni: ijo ni li lon. jan Tanpeto li toki e ni: ijo ni li lon, la** ona li kama pilin e ni: ijo ni li lon. taso jan Tanpeto li kama jo e suwi jelo ante li toki ala tawa jan Makonaka.

nimi "jan mute li toki e ni:" ona li toki kin. kin la "tenpo pimeja pini la jan Wotemoli li tawa lon ma tomo 'Poki pi jan Kotewi <Godric>'. ona li alasa e jan Pota mute. sin la jan Lili Pota en jan Jen Pota li - li - ona li - moli."

jan Tanpeto li anpa e lawa sama. jan pi pana sona Makonaka li kon wawa tawa uta sama.

'jan Lili en jan Jen ... mi pilin ala e lon. tenpo pini la mi wile ala pilin e lon. o jan Alapu, a...'

jan Tanpeto li tawa e luka sama lon ona li pilin e ona lon loka sewi ona. nimi "mi sona... mi sona" li toki pi jan Tanpeto pi nasin pi pilin ike.


* This doesn't feel quite right - but how else to modify "wile" rather than the verb it itself modifies?
** This neither. Can I have a compound "ni-colon" sentence in the "la" slot? Also, lots of "ijo ni"s. I hope it's clear what they refer to.

Having now passed the end of page 12 of an 18-page chapter, we're two-thirds through :)

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:36 pm

"Prof. McGonagall acted as though she really (only?) wanted to talk about this, which was the real cause: She spent the whole day on a cold stone wall. She stared cuttingly at Dumbledore. In the critters' time, indeed in her time, he never stared similarly. This (?) knew well that, on the subject of the talk of "everybody", s/he/they/it did not think that this thing was real. If Dumbledore said this was real, he cae to believe that this was real. But Dumbledore got another Sherbet Lemon and didn't talk to McGonagall.
"Many people say" he finally said "that last night, Voldemort moved in the town Godric's Box. He was looking for several Potters. Again, Lili Potter and Jen Potter are ... are ... they are ... dead."
Dumbledore bowed his head. Prof. McGonagall gasped.
"Lily and Jen ... I don't think the truth. In the past, I did not want to believe the truth. O, Albus, oh ..."
Dumbledore moved (I would have used 'lon', "placed") on her and touched her on her upraised hands (?). "I know, I know." Dumbledore said miserably.

'wile pi mute ali toki' is unproblematic grammatically, since modalness flows through adverbs OK. The comma is slightly off-putting and isn't needed *in this case* (i.e., sometime it would help) since 'ali' is a phrase ender in almost every context.

'ni:' within 'la' phrase is OK, but we need a better device for marking the end of the metasentence in which the 'ni:' complement is embedded. I've been using dashes (a suggestion from over on Facebook), but it doesn't quite work yet.
The 'ijo's got me totally lost at some point . I think that, as my wife says when I say, out of the blue, "That looks good", "Use your nouns!" (with various embroideries). It sometimes violates the original, of course, but we don't have as rich a pronoun system. 'ni' as a noun refers to facts, not things, so I may have gotten further lost in that first paragraph.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:42 pm

Yeah, nouns. They'd be useful, eh? Ok, let's try again.

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li pali pi nasin ni: ona li wile pi mute ali toki e ijo ni. ni li tan ni lon: ona li awen lon sinpin kiwen lete lon tenpo suno ni ali. ona li lukin wawa kipisi e jan Tanpeto. tenpo pi ni: jan Makonaka li soweli - la tenpo kin pi ni: ona li meli - la ona li lukin pi wawa sama lon tenpo ala. ni li pona sona*: ijo pi toki pi "jan ali" la jan Makonaka li pilin ala e ni: ijo ni li lon. jan Tanpeto li toki e ni: ijo ni li lon - la jan Makonaka li kama pilin e ni: ijo ni li lon. taso jan Tanpeto li kama jo e suwi jelo ante li toki ala tawa jan Makonaka.

nimi "jan mute li toki e ni:" jan Makonaka li toki kin. kin la "tenpo pimeja pini la jan Wotemoli li tawa lon ma tomo 'Poki pi jan Kotewi**'. ona li alasa e jan Pota mute. sin la*** jan Lili Pota en jan Jen <James> Pota li - li - ona li - moli."

jan Tanpeto li anpa e lawa sama. jan pi pana sona Makonaka li kon wawa tawa uta sama.

'jan Lili en jan Jen ... mi pilin ala e ni: ni li lon. tenpo pini la mi wile ala pilin e ni: ni li lon. o jan Alapu, a...'

jan Tanpeto li tawa e luka sama lon ona li pilin e ona lon loka sewi ona. nimi "mi sona... mi sona" li toki pi jan Tanpeto pi nasin pi pilin ike

* "It was clear that...". "pona sona" is better than "sona pona", because the thing is "good-of-knowing", rather than "knowing-well"; but I'm still not sure. May have to drop it.
** Godric's Hollow (although I like Box. I live near a village named Box)
*** "The rumour is". I'd hoped for "sin la" to approximate to "The rumour is", although it was probably a bit of a long shot.

I haven't touched the last sentence, which turns up the unusual (so far) issue of a lack of body parts. Dumbledore reaches out ("moved his hand to her") and places his hand on her shoulder ("touched to top of her arm" - but, of course, multiple stronger meanings for sewi and luka).

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:39 pm

Maybe 'lupa' for "Hollow"?
tawa ona e luka sama li pilin e sewi luka ona ?

Prof. McGonagall acted as idf she wanted mainly to talk about the cause of her spending this whole day on a cold stone wall. She stared sharply at Dumbledore. While she was an animal and while she was a woman too, she never looked at him like this. [Why not just, 'ona li sowlei la ona li meli la ona li lukin...' simpler and non-controversial] This is good to know [I think its 'sona pona' "good (in this case, clear) knowledge".] As for the topic of "everybody"s talk, McGonagall did not think this subject existed. If Dumbledore said the subject existed..., then McGonagall would come to think it exists. But Dumbledore got another Sherbet Lemon and did not talk to McGonagall.
"Many people say that" McGonagall said then. "last night Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow. He was hunting for Potters. Newsly ['kute' the "hearsay" marker is probably safer] Lily Potter and James Potter are... they are ... dead."
Dumbledore bowed his head. Prof. McGonagall gasped/sighed/coughed?
"Lily and James...I don't think that it is true. I haven't wanted to think that it was true. O Albus, oh..."

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:11 am

Ahh, that's much better. Some confusion of the complex middle section, which should be: "It was plain that whatever 'everyone' was saying, she was not going to believe it until Dumbledore told her it was true". I'm aiming for "McGonagall did not think it was true. If Dumbledore said it was true, then she would start thinking it was true".

That aside (and "gasped" is right, as you went for first time), here's markups:

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li pali pi nasin ni: ona li wile pi mute ali toki e ijo ni. ni li tan ni lon: ona li awen lon sinpin kiwen lete lon tenpo suno ni ali. ona li lukin wawa kipisi e jan Tanpeto. jan Makonaka li soweli la ona li meli la ona li lukin pi wawa sama lon tenpo ala. ijo wan li sona pona. ijo ni li ni: ijo pi toki pi "jan ali" la jan Makonaka li pilin ala e ni: ijo ni li lon. jan Tanpeto li toki e ni: ijo ni li lon - la jan Makonaka li kama pilin e ni: ijo ni li lon. taso jan Tanpeto li kama jo e suwi jelo ante li toki ala tawa jan Makonaka.

nimi "jan mute li toki e ni:" jan Makonaka li toki kin. kin la "tenpo pimeja pini la jan Wotemoli li tawa lon ma tomo 'Lupa pi jan Kotewi'. ona li alasa e jan Pota mute. kute la jan Lili Pota en jan Jen Pota li - li - ona li - moli."

jan Tanpeto li anpa e lawa sama. jan pi pana sona Makonaka li kon wawa tawa uta sama.

'jan Lili en jan Jen ... mi ken pilin ala e ni: ni li lon. tenpo pini la mi wile ala pilin e ni: ni li lon. o jan Alapu, a...'

jan Tanpeto li tawa ona e luka sama li pilin e sewi luka ona. nimi "mi sona... mi sona" li toki pi jan Tanpeto pi nasin pi pilin ike


jan pi pana sona Makonaka li toki pi kalama pi pilin mute e ni: 'ni li ali ala. kute la jan Wotemoli li lukin moli e mije lili Ari pi jan Pota. taso ona li ken ala. ona li ken ala moli e mije lili. jan ala li sona e tan ni. taso kute la jan Wotemoli li ken ala moli e jan Ari Pota la wawa ona li pakala. ona li tawa wewa tan ni.'

nasin pi pilin ike la jan Tanpeto li anpa e lawa sama li sewi e lawa sama*.

nimi 'ni... ni li lon?' li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin pi tawa en awen**. 'ijo ali pi pali ona la... jan ali pi moli ona la... ona li ken ala moli e mije lili? ni li nasa: ijo ni li pini e pali ona... taso nimi pi ma sewi la jan Ari li moli ala tan seme***?'

nimi "mi mute li pilin pi sona ala" li toki pi jan Tanpeto. kin la nimi 'ken la mi mute li sona lon tenpo ala.'

* It's a shame there's no "and" form that lets you apply two verbs to the same object.
** I don't mind losing "faltered"; this is an experiment as much as anything.
*** Idiom. I'm again happy just to swap out the la-phrase for a "tan seme kin" or some such.

Big paragraph coming up, so we'll break before it.

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:55 pm

Prof McGonagall said emotionally "That's not all. Rumor has it that Voldmort tried to kill Potter's son Harry. [I really don't like that use of 'lukin' and use -- also unsatisfactorly -- 'pali' instead] But he couldn't. He could not kill the boy. Nobody know why. But they say that if Voldemort cannot kill Harry Potter, his power is destroyed. He ran off because of this."
Sadly, Dumbledor nodded his head. [Two solution, one a fudge the other an apparent rule violation. "li anpa li sewi, e lawa' -- comma to indicate that the connection is not with the latest possibility only but an earlier one as well -- or 'li anpa en sewi e lawa' -- 'en' for semantic compound action nor for grammatical joining of two separate one 'lowered-and-raised his head", like red-and-blue ball at the verb level.]
"This ,,, this is true?" said Prof. McGonagall hesitantly. "Everything about his deeds, ... everybody of his death ... he cannot kill the boy? That is crazy. This thing is the end of his deeds. By why, in the name of Heaven, isn't Harry dead?"
"We feel ignorant" said Dumbledore "Maybe we will never know."


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