jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:11 pm

mi pakala! I seem to fairly regularly confuse 'laso' and 'loje' (bad because "glas" is in my vocabulary). Don't know why. Unfortunately, here 'loje' make sense,too (though not as a dress color for her.)
just to muck things up, 'linja pi linja kule' works,too for striped fur. I seem to have run 'pimeja' and 'sama sike lili' together, ignoring the 'li'. Getting it right, I would have given her ringlets or curls. A tight bun (local sniggers) is harder to do; maybe something along the lines of 'lon sike wawa pi lon monsi lawa' (too many words for a detail!)
'sinpin' for "wall" works for cities and buildings, but a free-standing wall seems to be different: it isn't the front of anything or even the face of it. I thought of "fence" but that seems to be something with 'palisa', so a picket fence or at least one with fenceposts. Maybe another job for 'leko'? or 'kiwen sinpin' (which starts to sound like maoi or henges).
but 'like a stick' is pretty good for "stiffly' (side remarks about where the stick was).
The whole tense (and mood and mode) bit just takes a lot more work in tp, since it is not built in anywhere. The first part seems to be "instead of just sitting there you could have been" which I don't know how to say. But the last part id 'lon tawa ni la mi lukin ...'
The problems are getting more arcane, which means the normal stuff is coming under control. good!

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:41 am

Fantastic, thanks! Right, so, minor markups (made at 2am, so...) then straight on:

jan Tanpeto li toki e ni: 'o jan pi pana sona Makonaka, tenpo pini la mi pilin kama ala e ni: mi lukin e sina lon ni.'

ona li sike tawa soweli ni pi linja pi kule linja. taso soweli ni li awen ala. jan Tanpeto li uta pona tawa meli. meli ni li musi ala lukin li len e ilo lukin pi poka tu tu. ilo lukin ni li sama lukin pi kule pi poka pi oko pi soweli ni. meli kin ni li len e len selo suli. len ni li laso jalo sama kiwen pi mani suli. linja pi meli ni li pimeja li lon sike wawa pi lon monsi lawa. meli ni li pakala lukin.

meli ni li toki e ni: "tan seme la sina sona e ni: jan mi li mi?"

"o jan pona pi pana sona, tenpo ala la mi lukin e ni: soweli pi linja uta li anpa e monsi sama palisa kin."

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li toki e ni: "sina anpa e monsi lon sinpin pi kiwen loje lon tenpo suno ali la sina sama palisa."

"tenpo suno ali? taso sina ken musi tan ijo pona. lon tawa ni la mi lukin e musi moku mute e musi mute pi jan mute."


I'm now away on holiday for a week and a bit; I'll pick this back up when I get back.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:05 pm

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li kon pi nasin utala kepeken nena sama.

ona li toki pi nasin pi awen ala e ni: "ni li lon mute: jan ali li musi tan ijo pona. jan li pilin kama e ni: jan ali li pali pi nasin ni: jan ali li wile pakala ala e ijo. taso ona li pali ala pi nasin ni. jan Makele* kin li kama sona e ni: ijo nasa li lon. tenpo pini la sitelen tawa pi ijo sin, pi jan Makele li toki e ijo ni."

ona li tawa pi tenpo lili e lawa sama tawa lupa lukin pimeja pi tomo pi anpa monsi (pi)** jan Taseli. "tenpo pini la mi kute e ni. waso mute pi tenpo pimeja... mun seli... a, ona mute li nasa ali ala. tenpo pini la ona mute li kama sona e ijo***. mun seli lon ma lili Ken... mi pilin wawa e ni: jan Tetalu Tika [Dedalus Diggle] li pali e ni. tenpo ala la ona li jo e sona pona."

* Spelling change. I've come to the conclusion that "u" as in "cup" is closer to TP 'a' than TP 'u'.
** For the purposes of 'pi'ing, does "jan Pita" count as one word or two? I suppose two, since you need to distinguish "jan esun Pita" (Peter, the shopkeeper) from "jan pi esun Pita" (someone associated with the market called "Peter Market")
*** "kama sona/lukin" feels close but slightly off. "They were bound to notice something".

I'd like to have done more than that short section, but I don't think I'm going to get time this week, so that'll stand.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:10 am

"Professor McGonagall breathed pugnaciously through her nose (snorted?).
She said impatiently "This is at much[?]. Everybody is rej0icing because of this good thing. People will think that everybody behaves like everybody must not destroy the thing. But they don't behave like that. The Muggles indeed learn that something weird exists. The Muggles' news talked about this."

She quickly moved her head to the dark windows of the sitting of the Dursleys (counts as 2 -- indeed, the original use of 'pi'). "I heard that owls, shooting stars, oh, they are not totally crazy. They learned something. [?wile kama lukin'? "must come to see"] Shooting stars in Kent, I strongly believe that Dedalus Diggle [thanks] did this. He always has good knowledge."

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:11 am

Excellent, we're still more-or-less in agreement.

Sniffed, not snorted, but it makes no difference and I didn't indicate the direction either way.

So, "ni li lon mute" is the problematic phrase today. The original is quite long, something like "Oh yes, they've been celebrating all right" (as McGonagall goes into full passive-aggressive mode!), but that seemed hard to reproduce. So I went for the secondary meaning of "lon", and hoped to get "That's very true".

In "jan li pilin kama", the "jan" was trying to be "one" or "you" - the indefinite person. But that doesn't work, which is fine. I'll change it to "mi", since it's really still just a passive-aggressive "I". The construct as a whole is complex and almost worked: "You'd think they'd be a bit more careful", which I tried to render as "one expects this: everyone would act in this manner: that they don't want to break anything". The reading got close, but lost some sense along the way.

Is there a way to distinguish "The Muggles indeed" from "Even the Muggles"?

The last paragraph appears to have worked almost perfectly, modulo 1) missing "room" in "the sitting of the Dursleys", and 2) you have a mis-read of "ala" for "ali" in the last sentence. Diggle "never had any sense", not "always had good knowledge".

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:00 pm

Yeah, I have trouble with 'ala' and its opposites (worst minimal pairs ever!). I wondered about "room" but thought you might be on to something different.
Context for "indeed" and "even', but I seem to be bad on context in this exercise. I am not sure what would have driven me one way or the other ("indeed" seems to be a default for stress).
Getting subjunctives into tp is a largely unexplored territory. Largely it seems to hinge on verbs and so, if I had read 'pilin kama' as "expect" ('believe about the future" rather than "believe in the future") things might have gone better.
Over on a number of forums we are trying to find a way to sort out the various ways that tp words affect English translations. We haven't gotten to 'lon' yet, but it seems a good one to test any solution we think has a chance. Of course, it is complicated by the fact that the "true' meaning is rather remote from the basic "at" (by way of the already rather remote "exist"). Still, a bad miss and I have no suggestions around it. 'lon la ona li musi kin' but I am not sure it catches any of the snark.
I never thought of snorting and sniffing as being basically the exhale and inhale of the same emotional routine. Nice (and probably easy to reproduce).
Not a too bad day, then.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:29 am

Ok, I'll take "lon la". I think "la" is one of those concepts that get much deeper the more you look at it; it's so much more than a context-setter or an if-then construct.

janChowlett wrote:jan pi pana sona Makonaka li kon pi nasin utala kepeken nena sama.

ona li toki pi nasin pi awen ala e ni: "lon la ona li musi kin. mi li pilin kama e ni: jan ali li pali pi nasin ni: jan ali li wile pakala ala e ijo. taso ona li pali ala pi nasin ni. jan Makele kin li kama sona e ni: ijo nasa li lon. tenpo pini la sitelen tawa pi ijo sin, pi jan Makele li toki e ijo ni."

ona li tawa pi tenpo lili e lawa sama tawa lupa lukin pimeja pi tomo pi anpa monsi pi jan Taseli. "tenpo pini la mi kute e ni. waso mute pi tenpo pimeja... mun seli... a, ona mute li nasa ali ala. tenpo pini la ona mute li wile kama lukin e ijo. mun seli lon ma lili Ken... mi pilin wawa e ni: jan Tetalu Tika li pali e ni. tenpo ala la ona li jo e sona pona."


jan Tanpeto li toki pi nasin pi utala ala e ni: 'ona mute li ken ala ike tawa sina. tenpo pini pi sike luka luka wan suno la* mi mute li jo e ijo pi lili mute ni: tan ijo ni la mi mute li musi mute."

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li toki pi nasin pi utala pilin e ni: 'mi sona e ni. taso ni li tan ala tawa ni: mi mute li pini sona**. jan mute li pali ala pi nasin ni: ona mute li wile pakala ala e ijo. ona mute li lon nasin lon tenpo suno li len ala kin e len pi jan Makele li toki e ijo sin kute tawa sama ante.'

jan Makonaka li lukin pi nasin wawa kepeken poka oko e jan Tanpeto. jan Makonaka li lukin pi nasin ni: ona li wile e ni: jan Tanpeto li toki e ijo tawa jan Makonaka. taso jan Tanpeto li toki ala. tan ni la jan Makonaka li toki e ni: "ni li lon la ali li pona mute: tenpo suno pi tawa weka pi jan Sina-Sona-Seme la jan mute Makele li kama sona e mi mute." (ona li toki pi nasin ni: ona li pilin pi ante ali pi toki sama.)*** ona li toki e ni: "o jan Tanpeto, ona li tawa weka kin anu tawa ala?"

* I don't like this, since the usual construct is "eleven times <la> I have circled the sun". I think I have "Time past of eleven sun-circles <la>", which is odd to say the least.
** Originally "lose our heads". I presume I shouldn't directly translate colloquialisms.
*** This sentence is completely absent from the book, because tone carries the sense of sarcasm. I'm also not sure it works.

So far, I've rendered all dialog as "Dumbledore said, in this way, the following: 'Stuff'". Does tp allow for the other arrangement: "'Stuff', said Dumbledore, in this way"? And, by extension, the double-sided way "'Stuff', said Dumbledore. 'And also nonsense'"?

Finally, is there a practical difference between "tenpo suno ni la <sentence>" and "<sentence> lon tenpo suno ni"?

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:18 pm

No time for trats today, but to your questions:
The only possible problem with 'tenpo suno ni la' and 'lon tenpo suno ni' is with 'ni'. At the beginning, it may refer to the time of speaking, the "now" of now or to the time of the event of the previous sentence. Similarly at the end, only with the following sentence. Lacking a 'ni', the two are the same.
Quotations are terrible in tp, since there seems to be only one way to do them (well, two): 'toki e nimi "..." and 'toki e (nimi) ni: "...". In some contexts (rapid conversation and, of course, scripts), you can use 'x la "..." for ''x li toki e nimi "...". Another possibility (which no on seems to have used yet) is 'nimi "..." li toki pi x'. I suppose that topicalization could be used as well: 'nimi "..." la x li toki e ona'. As for splits, I suspect that one of those fronting devices and then, after the 'toki' bit, 'kin la "..."' would squeak through somehow. We do need some variety (and not just in quotes).
'sike suno luka luka wan (li) pini la' sun circling is an automatic time thingy. "Eleven years having passed" or so.
'pini sona' is nice but 'kama nasa mute' is clearer' (and 'weka e sona' closer to the original).
"He talks as though he is the same word's (or his own word's) totally different feeling" ? 'ona li toki pi nasin ni: ona li ante ali pilin tan toki sama (or 'ona'). ? I think, maybe.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:48 pm

Dumbledore said calmly "They can't be bad to you. For the past eleven years, we had this very little thing, because of which we enjoyed a lot. (were very happy?)
Professor Magonagle said angrily "I know that. But that is not a cause for us stopping being intelligent. Many people did not behave as though they wanted to destroy things. They are on the street in day light and don't even wear Muggles clothing and tell news they hear to similar differents(? I expect "people different from themselves" 'ante (pi tan) sama' )
Magonagle looked fiercely askance at Dumbledore. [I think the 'kepeken' phrase has to go after the DO officially; this needs some work.] Magonigle looked as though she wanted Dumbledore to say something to her. But Dumbledore didn't speak. So Magonagle said " If this is true, then everything is very good: on the day of the departure of You-know-who. the Muggles will come to know us." (She said this as if she felt totally different from what she said.) She said "Dumbldore. is he really going away or not going?"

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:54 am

Ok, the usual minor issues. Let's see if we can fix them.

"For the past eleven years, we had this very little thing, because of which we enjoyed a lot." - the eternal "lili" confusion over "small" and "few", since what we actully want is "we had very little to celebrate". It... may look weird, but would "mi mute li jo e ijo pi mute pi lili mute" work? "We had something very small in quantity"? Or, perhaps, "...e ijo pi nanpa pi lili mute"?

A nasty maze of negations led to a misread - "People didn't act as those they wanted to not break things" ("People are being careless").

I'll take "ante pi tan sama". In fact, it looks like this week's take-away is that "ante" often comes first.

I can see whence came "fiercely askance", but I was looking for "sharply sideways". I'm not sure if a rewording would help much.

These corrections are getting shorter! Hurrah. I'll hope to continue tomorrow.


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