jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:44 pm

A first! With the exception of your tweak of 'pali' for 'lukin', and the possible cheat at "li anpa en li sewi, e", that's all close enough that I don't think any changes are needed!

I'll just carry on with fresh stuff next time I have time :D.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:12 am

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li toki pi kalama pi pilin mute e ni: 'ni li ali ala. kute la jan Wotemoli li pali moli e mije lili Ari pi jan Pota. taso ona li ken ala. ona li ken ala moli e mije lili. jan ala li sona e tan ni. taso kute la jan Wotemoli li ken ala moli e jan Ari Pota la wawa ona li pakala. ona li tawa wewa tan ni.'

nasin pi pilin ike la jan Tanpeto li anpa en sewi e lawa sama.

nimi 'ni... ni li lon?' li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin pi tawa en awen**. 'ijo ali pi pali ona la... jan ali pi moli ona la... ona li ken ala moli e mije lili? ni li nasa: ijo ni li pini e pali ona... taso nimi pi ma sewi la jan Ari li moli ala tan seme***?'

nimi "mi mute li pilin pi sona ala" li toki pi jan Tanpeto. kin la nimi 'ken la mi mute li sona lon tenpo ala.'


jan pi pana sona Makonaka li kama jo e len lili li pilin kepeken len ni e oko sama lon anpa pi ilo lukin sama. jan Tanpeto li kon suli tawa insa nena sona li kama jo e ilo tenpo lili pi kiwen pi kule jelo li lukin e ilo ni. ilo ni li ilo tenpo pi nasa mute. ilo ni li jo e palisa luka luka tu. taso ilo ni li jo ala e sitelen nanpa. mun suli lili li tawa lon selo pi ilo ni. taso lon la jan Tanpeto li sona e ilo ni tan ni: jan Tanpeto li pana e ilo ni lon insa poka len sama li toki e ni: 'mi wile e ni: jan Akiwi <Hagrid> - not that keen on it li lon ni lon tenpo pini. mi pilin e ni: jan Akiwi li toki e ni tawa sina: mi li lon ni. ni li lon ala lon?'

nimi "lon," li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka. "taso mi pilin ala e ni: sina kama toki e tan ni tawa mi: sina li lon ni."

"mi kama lon ni tan ni: mi pana e jan Ari tawa meli pi sama pi mama pi jan Ari, en mije pi meli ni*. tenpo ni la jan tu ni li jan sama taso pi jan Ari."

nimi "sin toki ala e... sina ken alatoki e jan pi tomo ni?" li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi kalama mute. ona li sewi wawa tawa noka** sama li luka tawa tomo nanpa tu tu. ona li toki e ni: 'o jan Tanpeto, sina ken ala. tenpo suno ni ali la mi lukin e jan ni. sina ken ala alasa e jan tu ni: jan li ante pi mi mute. jan tu ni li jo e mije lili. mi lukin e ni: mije lili ni li utala noka e mama sama lon nasin ni ali. ona li toki pi kalama mute tan ni: ona li wile jo e suwi. jan Ari Pota li ken ala kama awen lon ni!"

* Complex family relations! Does this work for Aunt and Uncle?
** Literally, I believe this makes no sense. I'm hoping it's interpretable.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:39 pm

Prof. McGonagal took a handkerchief and her eyes with it (prep phrases after the DO) under her glasses. Dumbledore breathed hugely (sighed? snorted? sniffed?) to the wise inside of his hill (I suppose "through his nose, but I don't get 'sona') and got his gold watch and looked at it. This was a very strange watch. It had twelve hands(?) but it did not have numbers. A few large moons (or stars, I suppose) moved on the surface (or cover or case or....) of this watch. But, in fact, Dumbledore knew (?) this watch because he placed it in the side of his cloak (insa pi poka (poki?) pi len sama')and said "I want Hagrid to have been here . I think that Hagrid told you that I was here. Is that right?" (Kakuti?, want something harsh sounding)

"Right." said Prof. McGonagal, "but I don't think that you came to say this reason to me: you are here" ("You didn't come to tell me why you are here", but it is convoluted somehow)

"I came here because I gave Harry to his aunt ('meli sama pi mama ona') and her husband. No these two are Harry's only relatives" ('jan sama' tends to be siblings -- and first cousins -- don't ask why -- so 'jan pi kulupu mama' is more general. fussiness.)

"Are you (assuming 'sina') saying ... You *cannot* talk to the people in this house?" (those intonation questions are still a bit of a problem, but surely exist and need to be accepted) said Prof. McGonagal, loudly. She sprang to her feet and pointed (I like 'ni' here, but 'luka' works fine) to number 22. She said "Dumbledore, you can't. All today I watched these people. You cannot hunt (harvest???) two people so different from us. This two have a son. I saw that boy kick (?) his parents in every way. He screamed because he wanted candy. Harry Potter can't come to stay here."

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:25 pm

Grrr, a couple of typos got in the way of the meaning there, and I didn't have time to proofread before posting. let's correct those up front:

* jan Tanpeto li kon suli tawa insa nena sama
* lon insa pi poki len sama
* sina toki ala e... (as you suspected); and then

Right, that dealt with:

I'll fix the location of the 'kepeken' phrase. I imagine that's a rule I'll forget often.

Hopefully, with typo corrected, it's clearer that Dumbledore gives a huge sniff - or something similar, anyway.

Yes, "hands" on the watch - good. The "large moons" are planets. Even TP should have a way of distinguishing, since primitive societies did tend to notice that the planets were different. Perhaps "mun tawa", to reflect the "wandering" nature?

Dumbledore understands the watch. "sona pona"? I quite like Kakuti.

Is "mi pilin ala e ni: sina kama toki e ni: sina li lon ni tan seme" any clearer?

Not "talk to the people in this house", but "talk about..." - I think that's a misread ('e', not 'tawa')? Number 4, as well.

Not "hunt", but "find". The end result of hunting, but not quite "looking, seeing" either. Tricky. Yes, "kick". Not "in every way", but "all along this street" - ambiguity of "nasin", but I'd hoped the "ni" would help?

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:50 pm

Wow! Fast turnaround!
I think I sorta figured out most of the typos, though I couldn't resist taking them literally for the nonce (OCD or arrant pedantry).

The rule la Subject Verb DO PP is thoroughly enshrined and more and more frequently violated at the end. I expect it will fade eventually, but for now .... Part of the reason for it was the lack of 'pi' with PPs modifying heads directly and that is gone. So, you can now get away with it by using 'pi' to the verb (but why bother?).

I like 'mun tawa' (although the moon and artificial satellites tawa, just not stars).

Sorry about missing a standard meaning of 'sona'.

No, it is worse, because it raises the question about indirect questions (a SAE calque, I think). 'mi pilin ala e ni: sina kama tawa ni: sina toki e ijo pi an ni: sina lon ni' (I forgot to note the 'sina li lon'). That is just to purely tp to be usable, I think, in spite of all the "break it down to basic sentences" advice. 'sina kama tawa toki pi tan ni: sina lon ni.' seems enough to me now.

"talk about x" is 'toki e ijo {x}' ({} activate the 'pi' rule). 'talk to' is 'toki tawa' but is the more common misuse of 'toki e' (I think, but that may just be from the last few days, the other is common, too). The 22 is definitely from reading this week's run of nanpa suli squibs (= 8, by the way).

"find" is generally -- especially as paired with 'alasa e' -- 'kama lukin e' "come to see'

Sorry, I just missed the 'ni' in 'lon nasin ni ali'.

So, a lot of misses on my part, nothing too terrible on yours (typos don't count -- a rule I have to make for my own protection). "find" as 'kama lukin' is old (pre 2009) and apparently obvious, since other come up with it de novo. 'toki e ijo {x}' is old but one of those group decisions from 2007-9 that no one seems to come up with again on their own, although it is clear when pointed out. Untangling the collapse of a messy string of 'ni' clauses into a relatively simple expression is a real pain sometimes.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:33 am

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li kama jo e len lili li pilin e oko sama kepeken len ni lon anpa pi ilo lukin sama. jan Tanpeto li kon suli tawa insa nena sama li kama jo e ilo tenpo lili pi kiwen pi kule jelo li lukin e ilo ni. ilo ni li ilo tenpo pi nasa mute. ilo ni li jo e palisa luka luka tu. taso ilo ni li jo ala e sitelen nanpa. mun tawa lili li tawa lon selo pi ilo ni. taso lon la jan Tanpeto li sona e ilo ni tan ni: jan Tanpeto li pana e ilo ni lon insa poki len sama li toki e ni: 'mi wile e ni: jan Kakuti li lon ni lon tenpo pini. mi pilin e ni: jan Kakuit li toki e ni tawa sina: mi li lon ni. ni li lon ala lon?'

nimi "lon," li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka. "taso mi pilin ala e ni: sina toki e ni tawa mi: sina lon ni tan seme."

"mi kama lon ni tan ni: mi pana e jan Ari tawa meli sama pi mama ona, en mije pi meli ni. tenpo ni la jan tu ni li jan taso pi kulupu mama pi jan Ari."

nimi "sina toki ala e... sina ken ala toki e ijo pi jan pi tomo ni?" li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi kalama mute. ona li sewi wawa tawa noka sama li luka tawa tomo nanpa tu tu. ona li toki e ni: 'o jan Tanpeto, sina ken ala. tenpo suno ni ali la mi lukin e jan ni. sina ken ala kama lukin e jan tu ni: jan li ante pi mi mute. jan tu ni li jo e mije lili. mi lukin e ni: mije lili ni li utala noka e mama sama lon nasin ni ali. ona li toki pi kalama mute tan ni: ona li wile jo e suwi. jan Ari Pota li ken ala kama awen lon ni!"


(Why the "tawa" in "sina kama tawa toki pi tan ni: sina lon ni."? Doesn't "kama tawa" mean "come to move", or "come to <the following place>")?

nimi "ma ni li pona ali tawa jan Ari" li toki pi jan Tanpeto pi nasin ni: jan ala li kama utala toki e ona. kin la "meli sama pi mama ona en mije pi meli ni li ken pana sona e ijo ali tawa jan Ari lon tenpo kama pi sike suno mute. mi sitelen e sitelen tawa ona tu."

nimi "e sitelen?" li toki kin pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin pi wawa lili. ona li anpa kin e monsi lon sinpin kiwen. kin la 'o jan Tanpeto, sina pilin ala pilin e ni: sina ken pana sona e ijo ni ali kepeken sitelen? tenpo ala la jan tu ni li sona e jan Ari! tenpo kama la jan mute li sona e ijo pi jan Ari. tenpo kama la jan Ari li sama pi jan sewi pi sitelen musi. nimi pi tenpo suno ni li nimi 'tenpo suno pi jan Ari Pota' lon tenpo kama la mi pilin ala e ni: nimi ni li nasa. tenpo kama la jan li sitelen e lipu mute pi ijo pi jan Ari. jan lili ali lon ma pi mi mute li kama sona e nimi ona!"

Busy-ness has returned, so a shortish bit.

This passage requires distinction of "letters" from "books" (although context helps somewhat). I know "book" is "lipu", even though lipu is really just "sheet", and books are hardly flat in and of themselves. Can we distinguish "letters" (short writing on a few sheets of paper) without excess verbosity?
Last edited by janChowlett on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:46 pm

(The problem is that there are a dozen ways to parse this bit and none of them seem to make sense in the context. What was it supposed to mean?)

"This is the prefect place for Harry" said Dumbledore in a way blocking any argument. "His aunt and uncle can teach him everything over the next several years. I have written them letters ['sitelen toki' works for e-mails, so probably also for paper -- or parchment -- letters]"
"Letters?" said Prof. McGonagall weakly. She sat down again on the stone wall. "Dumbledore, do you think you can teach all this by letters? These two people will never understand Harry. Many people will know about Harry. In the future Harry will be like [no 'pi'] the god/priest of music/literature [or, with 'pi', "the kin of ...". Neither make a lot of sense.] If today is called "Harry Potter Day" in the future, I won't think the name is crazy. In the future, many book will be written about Harry. Every child in our world will come to know his name."

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:40 pm

(Ah, fair point. The original is actually "I don't suppose you're going to tell me why you're here, of all places?". I was rendering it down to just "I don't suppose you're going to tell me why you're here".)

The back-translation here, short as it is, is pretty spot on :). I'll adopt "sitelen toki" - written speech works, indeed.

"Many people will know about" => "He'll be famous". I don't see one can get closer.

The most tricky bit is "jan Ari li sama pi jan sewi pi sitelen musi." => "He'll be a legend". Literally, I wanted something like "he'll be like the awe-inspiring people of stories". Perhaps "suli, important" would have been better than "sewi", but I was trying to avoid "large".

Otherwise, bang on!

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:04 pm

'mi pilin ala e ni: sina (kama) toki e ni tawa mi: sina lon ni tan seme.' (or, maybe better, 'tawa seme')
Yes, that is about as good for "famous" as we can manage.
The problem with 'jan sewi' is that it was overused for "priest" and "god" and so is hard to see as its components. 'jan suli', on the other hand, is well entrenches ad "celebrity' (as well as "fatso" but I expect the context would take care of that) And 'sitelen musi' is used for sheet music. And, of course, the 'pi' sets up a whole bunch of other associations (kinfolk, etc.). 'sama jan suli pi utala pi tenpo pini' "equal to the great men of past wars", or so (or you could throw in a 'toki' "tales of past wars"). Nothing quite gets it, though.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:38 am

nimi "ma ni li pona ali tawa jan Ari" li toki pi jan Tanpeto pi nasin ni: jan ala li kama utala toki e ona. kin la "meli sama pi mama ona en mije pi meli ni li ken pana sona e ijo ali tawa jan Ari lon tenpo kama pi sike suno mute. mi sitelen e sitelen toki tawa ona tu."

nimi "e sitelen toki?" li toki kin pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin pi wawa lili. ona li anpa kin e monsi lon sinpin kiwen. kin la 'o jan Tanpeto, sina pilin ala pilin e ni: sina ken pana sona e ijo ni ali kepeken sitelen? tenpo ala la jan tu ni li sona e jan Ari! tenpo kama la jan mute li sona e ijo pi jan Ari. tenpo kama la jan Ari li sama jan suli pi toki pi utala pi tenpo pini. nimi pi tenpo suno ni li nimi 'tenpo suno pi jan Ari Pota' lon tenpo kama la mi pilin ala e ni: nimi ni li nasa. tenpo kama la jan li sitelen e lipu mute pi ijo pi jan Ari. jan lili ali lon ma pi mi mute li kama sona e nimi ona!"


nimi 'mute la ni li lon,' li toki pi jan Tanpeto. ona li lukin pi nasin musi ala lon sewi pi ijo lukin pi sike pi pini ala sama. kin la 'ni la mije lili ali li kama pilin e ni: ona li suli mute. tenpo kama pi tawa noka ona la tenpo kama pi toki ona la jan mute li sona e ijo ona! tenpo kama la jan mute li sona e ijo ona tan ijo pi tenpo pini pi sona ala ona! sina sona ala sona e ni: jan Ari li kama suli lon weka mi mute la jan Ari li pona mute*?'

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li open e uta sama li ante e pilin sama li moku e ala li toki e ni: "pona - pona la sina toki pona. taso o jan Tanpeto, mije lili ni li kama lon ni tan seme?" tenpo lili la ona li lukin e len selo pi jan Tanpeto. ona li lukin pi nasin ni: ona li pilin e ni: jan Tanpeto li ken jo e jan Ari lon anpa pi len selo ni.

"jan Kakuti li jo e ona li kama lon ni."

"sina pilin ala pilin e ni: jan Kakuti li kama pali pona e ijo pi sama pi suli ni**?"

nimi "mi pilin e ni: jan Kakuti li wile pali pona e ijo pi lon mi" li toki pi jan Tanpeto.

nimi "mi toki ala e ni: ona li pilin pona," li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin ni: ona li wile ala toki e ni. kin la 'taso sina ken ala toki e ni: ona li pali pi nasin ni: ona li wile ala pakala e ijo. tenpo mute la ona li ... ... ni li seme?"

* I have omitted here "until he's ready to take it" ("Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it?"), because I have no idea how to render it.
** I keep getting confused about the relative order of 'sama' and the thing it is comparing to. Here we have "something as important as this". Am I accurate? Also, this sentence refers to "trust" - the closest I could come up with is "think <person> would act well with".


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