'xla y la (.... w la) is legal but has to be used carefully, siince what is in one condition may affect what is in later ones. The grouping is also not perfectly clear but defaults (I think) to right grouping, i.e., each 'la' phrase conditions all that follows it.
"Mr. Dursley always lay on the ninth couch(?) His back is on the trip to a hole (?). Other than this, tomorrow he did not know the doorknob."
So, 'lon tawa' is legal but probably not what you want and a few other things are a tad obscure.
He did not see (notice) that an owl was flying in the day time. But many people on the street saw this. While many birds flew in their sky, they pointed at ('e' is probably enough) this one and looked open mouthed. Always (prob only "often" applies) at nich, however, they saw this bird. But Mr. Dursley (caps) had a normal tomorrow. This tomorrow did not have an owl. He (or it) argued with five people. He talked a lot big (loudly?) on the telephone. All tomorrow he felt very good. At dinner time, the thinks he will go to a bakery in a routinely different heat because of money ?? cake."
You can't have 'e' in a noun phrase, which is where you seem to be. At the least, this 'e' goes with 'tawa' "move a cake to a bakery" but with prepositional phrases intervening, which they cannot. Several other things are odd here, notably the repated use of 'tomorrow' 'tenpo suno kama' when it seems that only "day" 'tenpo suno' is meant.
He finished touching a man in a big hot outfit. But he moved this group at the side of ('pi') the bakery"
Where did he move them to? I suspect this is just 'tawa' "go to", without the 'e'.
"He looked aggressively at this group. He did not know that this group was ill-disposed toward him. This group whispered excitedly (not sure about that second one) He/They did not see the purse. When he walked ('tawa noka') on the edge of ('pi) them and took his cookie in a box, he didn't hear much of their talk."
Better overall with some new oddities and old relapses.
jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
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janChowlett
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:54 am
Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
Wow, crash and burn this time! (a, mi pakala li seli!)
* Mr. Dursley always lay on the ninth couch(?)
I'm going to try "tenpo ali la mije Taseli li supa lon supa sewi tomo nanpa luka tu tu.". The problem here is one of noun. He sits on the ninth floor. Now a floor is a horizontal surface, supa, so I'm going to need some modifiers where I missed them before. How about "building-related high flat surface"? The alternative I considered was selo, but that feel wrong.
* His back is on the trip to a hole
I'm not sure what's wrong with my original, "monsi ona li lon tawa lupa". I can see that your reading is valid, but I can't see a better way to say "His back was towards the window". I suppose "tawa" suggests motion, which I don't want. Can "sinpin" be used here?
* Other than this, tomorrow he did not know the doorknob.
I've been consistent on "ilo lupa" for "drill", so I'm not going to apologise for that (although, "ilo pi pali lupa", "tool for hole-making" may be more accurate). "tenpo suno kama" is an error, although one I got from a webpage... I can no longer find. Rather than meaning "the coming day", it's aiming for "the time the sun comes", that is "morning". I guess that would be better as "tenpo pi suno kama". And I should take into account right-binding of la phrases. Also, I don't know why I've got "sona", when I seem to have settled on "pilin" for think.
Thus, I'll change to "tenpo pi suno kama ni, la ante ni la ona li pilin ala ijo ilo lupa" - "That morning, otherwise, he (would have) not thought about drills". Hopefully.
* Always (prob only "often" applies) at night, however
Hrm, that's basically the exact opposite of the desired sense, which is "Not even at night". Suggestions?
* He talked a lot big (loudly?) on the telephone.
I'd use kalama or kalama mute for "loudly". "He made several important telephone calls", so I went for "He talked importantly on the telephone".
* in a routinely different heat
I hope you've misread this (and elsewhere), because I was pretty sure "lon selo ante nasin" means "on the other side of the road".
* because of money ?? cake.
Yeah, complete brain fade. I need a subordinate clause. How about: "tenpo moku la ona li pilin e ni: ona li tawa esun pan, lon selo ante nasin, tan ni: ona li mani e pan suwi." ? I'm hoping that "mani" can be verbed as "buy".
* He finished touching a man in a big hot outfit.
Ok, let's correct that to "ona li pini pilin e ijo pi jan pi len selo suli."
* But he moved this group at the side of ('pi') the bakery
Indeed, a spare 'e' and a pair of missing 'pi'. "taso ona li tawa kulupu pi jan ni lon poka pi esun pan". The verb I want is actually "pass", rather than "go to". Any suggestions? Something like "tawa poka" or "tawa selo"?
* He did not know that this group was ill-disposed toward him.
Ooh, wrong direction of action, due to a missing "why", and a confusion over the usual construct of "I don't like it" being "ni li ike tawa mi".
How about "ona li sona tan seme ala e ni: kulupu ni li ike tawa ona. ona li pilin ike e ijo kulupu ni."
* He/They did not see the purse.
I think my translation is accurate, but potentially confusing. "mije Taseli li lukin ala e poki mani." Maybe "poki pi pana mani" - "container for giving money" (collecting tin)?
* When he walked ('tawa noka') on the edge of ('pi) them and took his cookie in a box, he didn't hear much of their talk.
Again, I think it's ok apart from the "tawa noka" and the missing "pi". "Walked on the edge" will have to do for "passed"; and "didn't hear much of" seems functionally equivalent to "heard a little of".
Been a busy week. Will carry on anon.
* Mr. Dursley always lay on the ninth couch(?)
I'm going to try "tenpo ali la mije Taseli li supa lon supa sewi tomo nanpa luka tu tu.". The problem here is one of noun. He sits on the ninth floor. Now a floor is a horizontal surface, supa, so I'm going to need some modifiers where I missed them before. How about "building-related high flat surface"? The alternative I considered was selo, but that feel wrong.
* His back is on the trip to a hole
I'm not sure what's wrong with my original, "monsi ona li lon tawa lupa". I can see that your reading is valid, but I can't see a better way to say "His back was towards the window". I suppose "tawa" suggests motion, which I don't want. Can "sinpin" be used here?
* Other than this, tomorrow he did not know the doorknob.
I've been consistent on "ilo lupa" for "drill", so I'm not going to apologise for that (although, "ilo pi pali lupa", "tool for hole-making" may be more accurate). "tenpo suno kama" is an error, although one I got from a webpage... I can no longer find. Rather than meaning "the coming day", it's aiming for "the time the sun comes", that is "morning". I guess that would be better as "tenpo pi suno kama". And I should take into account right-binding of la phrases. Also, I don't know why I've got "sona", when I seem to have settled on "pilin" for think.
Thus, I'll change to "tenpo pi suno kama ni, la ante ni la ona li pilin ala ijo ilo lupa" - "That morning, otherwise, he (would have) not thought about drills". Hopefully.
* Always (prob only "often" applies) at night, however
Hrm, that's basically the exact opposite of the desired sense, which is "Not even at night". Suggestions?
* He talked a lot big (loudly?) on the telephone.
I'd use kalama or kalama mute for "loudly". "He made several important telephone calls", so I went for "He talked importantly on the telephone".
* in a routinely different heat
I hope you've misread this (and elsewhere), because I was pretty sure "lon selo ante nasin" means "on the other side of the road".
* because of money ?? cake.
Yeah, complete brain fade. I need a subordinate clause. How about: "tenpo moku la ona li pilin e ni: ona li tawa esun pan, lon selo ante nasin, tan ni: ona li mani e pan suwi." ? I'm hoping that "mani" can be verbed as "buy".
* He finished touching a man in a big hot outfit.
Ok, let's correct that to "ona li pini pilin e ijo pi jan pi len selo suli."
* But he moved this group at the side of ('pi') the bakery
Indeed, a spare 'e' and a pair of missing 'pi'. "taso ona li tawa kulupu pi jan ni lon poka pi esun pan". The verb I want is actually "pass", rather than "go to". Any suggestions? Something like "tawa poka" or "tawa selo"?
* He did not know that this group was ill-disposed toward him.
Ooh, wrong direction of action, due to a missing "why", and a confusion over the usual construct of "I don't like it" being "ni li ike tawa mi".
How about "ona li sona tan seme ala e ni: kulupu ni li ike tawa ona. ona li pilin ike e ijo kulupu ni."
* He/They did not see the purse.
I think my translation is accurate, but potentially confusing. "mije Taseli li lukin ala e poki mani." Maybe "poki pi pana mani" - "container for giving money" (collecting tin)?
* When he walked ('tawa noka') on the edge of ('pi) them and took his cookie in a box, he didn't hear much of their talk.
Again, I think it's ok apart from the "tawa noka" and the missing "pi". "Walked on the edge" will have to do for "passed"; and "didn't hear much of" seems functionally equivalent to "heard a little of".
Been a busy week. Will carry on anon.
Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
Boy, I was in a bad mood back then. Sorry.
'selo' definitely doesn't work, so a good "floor, story" is needed. 'supa tomo' is probably just "floor" in the boards sense or even the slab). so 'supa sewi tomo' it is.For the verb, 'awen' probably is enough for "in his usual place".
Well, I think "window" needs to go beyond 'lupa' here; there are too many holes around. Even 'lupa tomo' doesn't help much since there are at least doors as well and the same applies to 'lupa sinpin'. maybe 'lupa lukin' (which satisfies a tp aesthetic as well)? And why not just "The window was behind him"' 'lupa lukin li lon monsi ona' (I'll try not to imagine butt-o-vision).
I suppose morning can be 'tenpo pi kama suno' (or 'open suno', but I am fond of 'open') 'pilin ala e ijo pi ilo lupa'
[skipping a couple for now]
Yup, I misread 'selo' as 'seli' again. But "side" is 'poka' so 'lon poka ante nasin'
'mani', as a verb, means either "monetize" (I think -- I really don't understand that idea) or "apply money to" so 'mani e jan esun tawa x" is probably "buy x from a salesperson" "buy" ought to be some form of 'esun' but there is no consensus about just how to do it (the original was a verb meaning "trade. barter" and that leads to virtually identical expressions for "buy" and "sell").
Nice clean up.
We need a good expression for "go around" and ' 'tawa selo pi' seems to work (though suggesting more contact than intended). 'tawa poka' gets into buddying up and joining sides and the like, which are not relevant (or are indeed undesirable) here.
'ona li sona ala e ni tan seme: "Why didn't he know this?" The "why" here is probably not interrogative. maybe 'ona li sona ala e tan ni: kulupu ni li ike tawa ona. "He didn't know the reason that he disliked this group."
I don't have a picture of what is involved in this; a tip jar?
'kute lili' for "scarcely heard" or some such. again 'tawa selo pi' seems to work for "pass", lacking a better.
"not even at night" is this the same as "even at night, not" "even at night" is roughly 'lon tenpo pimeja kin'
"He made several important telephone calls" 'ona li pana e toki suli mute kepeken ilo toki'
Keep up the good work.
'selo' definitely doesn't work, so a good "floor, story" is needed. 'supa tomo' is probably just "floor" in the boards sense or even the slab). so 'supa sewi tomo' it is.For the verb, 'awen' probably is enough for "in his usual place".
Well, I think "window" needs to go beyond 'lupa' here; there are too many holes around. Even 'lupa tomo' doesn't help much since there are at least doors as well and the same applies to 'lupa sinpin'. maybe 'lupa lukin' (which satisfies a tp aesthetic as well)? And why not just "The window was behind him"' 'lupa lukin li lon monsi ona' (I'll try not to imagine butt-o-vision).
I suppose morning can be 'tenpo pi kama suno' (or 'open suno', but I am fond of 'open') 'pilin ala e ijo pi ilo lupa'
[skipping a couple for now]
Yup, I misread 'selo' as 'seli' again. But "side" is 'poka' so 'lon poka ante nasin'
'mani', as a verb, means either "monetize" (I think -- I really don't understand that idea) or "apply money to" so 'mani e jan esun tawa x" is probably "buy x from a salesperson" "buy" ought to be some form of 'esun' but there is no consensus about just how to do it (the original was a verb meaning "trade. barter" and that leads to virtually identical expressions for "buy" and "sell").
Nice clean up.
We need a good expression for "go around" and ' 'tawa selo pi' seems to work (though suggesting more contact than intended). 'tawa poka' gets into buddying up and joining sides and the like, which are not relevant (or are indeed undesirable) here.
'ona li sona ala e ni tan seme: "Why didn't he know this?" The "why" here is probably not interrogative. maybe 'ona li sona ala e tan ni: kulupu ni li ike tawa ona. "He didn't know the reason that he disliked this group."
I don't have a picture of what is involved in this; a tip jar?
'kute lili' for "scarcely heard" or some such. again 'tawa selo pi' seems to work for "pass", lacking a better.
"not even at night" is this the same as "even at night, not" "even at night" is roughly 'lon tenpo pimeja kin'
"He made several important telephone calls" 'ona li pana e toki suli mute kepeken ilo toki'
Keep up the good work.
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janChowlett
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:54 am
Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
The "tip jar" you can't get a picture of is a "collecting tin". Earlier in the chapter, Mr Dursley has assumed that all these weirdly-dressed people must be collecting for something; here, he sees more of them, but "he couldn't see a single collecting tin".
All right, so here's the corrected paragraph from last time:
mije Taseli li pini tawa. ona li pilin ike. ona li lukin e kulupu pi toki pi kalama lili tan ni: ona li wile toki e kulupu ni. taso ona li pilin ante.
ona li tawa wawa lon poka ante nasin li tawa wawa lon tomo pali ona li toki utala e ni: ona li wile ala e ni: jan sitelen ona li toki tawa ona. ona li kama jo utala e ilo toki ona. ona li pini poka luka e nanpa pi tomo ona, la ona li pilin ante. ona li anpa e ilo toki. ona li luka e linja uta ona li pilin. ona li nasa. nimi Pota li nasa ante. ona li pilin e ijo ni: jan mute li nimi e nimi 'Pota' li jo e jan lili 'Ari'. ona li sona pona e ni: jan lili li nimi e nimi 'Ari'. tenpo ala la ona li lukin e jan lili. ken la ona li nimi e nimi 'Api' anu nimi 'Alol'. ona li ken pali e ni: meli Taseli li pilin ike. taso ni li ike. tenpo ali la meli Taseli li pilin utala tan ni: jan li toki e ijo pi meli sama ona. mije Taseli li pilin ike ala tawa meli Taseli. ona li jo e meli sama seme, la...
taso jan ni pi len selo suli...
My problems in this section were from two main sources. One is that - as this post attests - it's hard to actually say "his name is <name>" (rather than "he is the-person-called-<name>"). The other is that Mr Dursley is having a bit of a train of thought moment, involving a number of fragments and counterfactuals, which are both a bit beyond Toki Pona's comfort zone!
To aid you in your reading, "Api" is meant to be "Harvey"; "Alol" is "Harold".
All right, so here's the corrected paragraph from last time:
And carrying on...tenpo ali la mije Taseli li supa lon supa sewi tomo nanpa luka tu tu. lupa lukin li lon monsi ona. ante ni la tenpo pi kama suno la ona li pilin ala e ijo pi ilo lupa. ona li lukin ala e ni: waso pi tenpo pimeja li waso lon tenpo suno. taso jan mute lon nasin li lukin e ni. waso mute li waso lon sewi ona la ona mute li luka tawa waso ni li lukin pi uta open. tenpo pimeja kin ala la ona mute li lukin e waso ni. taso mije Taseli li jo e tenpo pi kama suno pi nasa ala. tenpo pi kama suno ni li jo ala e waso pi tenpo pimeja. ona li toki utala e jan luka. ona li pana e toki suli mute kepeken ilo toki li toki utala mute. tenpo pi kama suno ali la ona li pilin pona mute. tenpo moku la ona li pilin e ni: ona li tawa esun pan, lon poka ante nasin, tan ni: ona li mani e jan esun tawa pan suwi.
ona li pini pilin e ijo jan pi len selo suli. taso ona li tawa selo pi kulupu pi jan ni lon poka pi esun pan. ona li lukin utala e kulupu ni. ona li sona ala e tan ni: kulupu ni li ike tawa ona. kulupu ni li toki pi kalama lili pi pilin sewi. ona li lukin ala e poki pi pana mani. ona li tawa noka selo pi ona mute li jo e pan suwi sike lon poki la ona li kute lili e toki pi ona mute.
'... jan Pota. mi kute e ni...'
'... jan lili ona. jan Ari...'
mije Taseli li pini tawa. ona li pilin ike. ona li lukin e kulupu pi toki pi kalama lili tan ni: ona li wile toki e kulupu ni. taso ona li pilin ante.
ona li tawa wawa lon poka ante nasin li tawa wawa lon tomo pali ona li toki utala e ni: ona li wile ala e ni: jan sitelen ona li toki tawa ona. ona li kama jo utala e ilo toki ona. ona li pini poka luka e nanpa pi tomo ona, la ona li pilin ante. ona li anpa e ilo toki. ona li luka e linja uta ona li pilin. ona li nasa. nimi Pota li nasa ante. ona li pilin e ijo ni: jan mute li nimi e nimi 'Pota' li jo e jan lili 'Ari'. ona li sona pona e ni: jan lili li nimi e nimi 'Ari'. tenpo ala la ona li lukin e jan lili. ken la ona li nimi e nimi 'Api' anu nimi 'Alol'. ona li ken pali e ni: meli Taseli li pilin ike. taso ni li ike. tenpo ali la meli Taseli li pilin utala tan ni: jan li toki e ijo pi meli sama ona. mije Taseli li pilin ike ala tawa meli Taseli. ona li jo e meli sama seme, la...
taso jan ni pi len selo suli...
My problems in this section were from two main sources. One is that - as this post attests - it's hard to actually say "his name is <name>" (rather than "he is the-person-called-<name>"). The other is that Mr Dursley is having a bit of a train of thought moment, involving a number of fragments and counterfactuals, which are both a bit beyond Toki Pona's comfort zone!
To aid you in your reading, "Api" is meant to be "Harvey"; "Alol" is "Harold".
Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
I admit I am doing this without looking back, so I may repeat myself or forget solutions previously worked out.
"Mr. Dursley always lay on the ninth floor. The window was behind him. Otherwise (? what does the 'ni' do here?) in the morning (lit "at dawn"), he didn't think about drills. He didn't see that an owl flew in daylight. But many people on the street ('jan pi lon nasin') saw it. When many birds flew above him, they looked at the bird and gaped. Not even at night did they see this bird. But Mr. Dursley had an ordinary morning. He argued with five people. He made several long phone calls and argued a lot. All morning he felt very good. At lunch time he thought that he would go to the bakery on the other side of the street (maybe 'esun pan pi lon poka') because (prob "so that", 'tawa') he paid the shopkeeper for cookies (or cakes or whatever).
He stopped thinking about the men in the big leather coat. But he went around a group of these people beside the bakery shop. He looked aggressively at this group. He/they did not know why he disliked this group. The group whispered excitedly. He did not see the collecting tins (seems more 'kama jo' than 'pana'). When he walked around then ('tawa noka lon selo') and had his cake in a box, he scarcely heard their talk, "Potter. I heard this" "His son' Harry""
Onward.
"Mr. Dursley stopped walking. (boy, I miss 'pake'!) He felt bad. He looked at the whispering group because he wanted to lak to ('tawa', not 'e') them. But they felt differently. They ran on the other side of the street and ran in ('tawa insa pi'?) his office and said aggressively that they did not want his secretary to talk to them/him (muddled in my preconceptions of what is going on). They grabbed his telephone. When they stopped making the number of his home be five sides (I think you want to say that they called his home or something like that but I don't see how this gets there), they feel differently. They put down the phone. They handled his moustache and felt (it). They were weird. The name "Potter" ('nimi 'Pota'') is differently strange. (lotta 'ona' problems here, probably an occasional 'x ni' to clarify)> They think about this: many people name the name "Potter" (something?) and have a child Harry (no quotes, this is him, not his name) They/he very well know that a child names the name "Harry". (expos pause. "He is called/named "Harry"" is 'jan li nimi 'Ari' e ona' or 'jan li nimi e ona kepeken nimi 'Ari'', so you have the DO and the oblique object exchanged with the subject scrambled, too -- problem with no passives. To your plain: "His name is Harry" is just 'nimi ona li nimi 'Ari'' and earlier 'jan mute li jo e nimi 'Ari''). He always see children. Maybe they name the name "Harvey" or the name "Harold" ('Alol' not a tp name). He can do this: Mrs. Dursley feels bad. But that is bad. Mrs. Dursley always feels aggressive because people talk about her sister. Mr. Dursley does not feel bad for Mrs. Dursley. If what sister did she have? then ... but these people in the long leather coats... "
"Mr. Dursley always lay on the ninth floor. The window was behind him. Otherwise (? what does the 'ni' do here?) in the morning (lit "at dawn"), he didn't think about drills. He didn't see that an owl flew in daylight. But many people on the street ('jan pi lon nasin') saw it. When many birds flew above him, they looked at the bird and gaped. Not even at night did they see this bird. But Mr. Dursley had an ordinary morning. He argued with five people. He made several long phone calls and argued a lot. All morning he felt very good. At lunch time he thought that he would go to the bakery on the other side of the street (maybe 'esun pan pi lon poka') because (prob "so that", 'tawa') he paid the shopkeeper for cookies (or cakes or whatever).
He stopped thinking about the men in the big leather coat. But he went around a group of these people beside the bakery shop. He looked aggressively at this group. He/they did not know why he disliked this group. The group whispered excitedly. He did not see the collecting tins (seems more 'kama jo' than 'pana'). When he walked around then ('tawa noka lon selo') and had his cake in a box, he scarcely heard their talk, "Potter. I heard this" "His son' Harry""
Onward.
"Mr. Dursley stopped walking. (boy, I miss 'pake'!) He felt bad. He looked at the whispering group because he wanted to lak to ('tawa', not 'e') them. But they felt differently. They ran on the other side of the street and ran in ('tawa insa pi'?) his office and said aggressively that they did not want his secretary to talk to them/him (muddled in my preconceptions of what is going on). They grabbed his telephone. When they stopped making the number of his home be five sides (I think you want to say that they called his home or something like that but I don't see how this gets there), they feel differently. They put down the phone. They handled his moustache and felt (it). They were weird. The name "Potter" ('nimi 'Pota'') is differently strange. (lotta 'ona' problems here, probably an occasional 'x ni' to clarify)> They think about this: many people name the name "Potter" (something?) and have a child Harry (no quotes, this is him, not his name) They/he very well know that a child names the name "Harry". (expos pause. "He is called/named "Harry"" is 'jan li nimi 'Ari' e ona' or 'jan li nimi e ona kepeken nimi 'Ari'', so you have the DO and the oblique object exchanged with the subject scrambled, too -- problem with no passives. To your plain: "His name is Harry" is just 'nimi ona li nimi 'Ari'' and earlier 'jan mute li jo e nimi 'Ari''). He always see children. Maybe they name the name "Harvey" or the name "Harold" ('Alol' not a tp name). He can do this: Mrs. Dursley feels bad. But that is bad. Mrs. Dursley always feels aggressive because people talk about her sister. Mr. Dursley does not feel bad for Mrs. Dursley. If what sister did she have? then ... but these people in the long leather coats... "
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janChowlett
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:54 am
Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
I've just realised how much like a game this is; a bit like the telephone game (Chinese Whispers in the UK) with only two players. Much fun.
Once again, I'm not dissatisfied with my attempt here; your back-translation is pretty close (modulo the excellently weird images produced by the 'ona' confusion - "They handled his moustache and felt (it)"
). I really need to try to do some work on this more regularly, to keep progress up.
Ok, notes on the fixing.
"ante ni" I had as "other than this", but if just "ante" works, that's fine.
"ona li pilin ante" (in two places) is meant to be "he changed his mind". 'ona' confusion, of course.
The next sentence is fine, except that "ona" is "he", not "they". "said aggressively that they did not want his secretary to talk to them/him" is, in fact, gratifyingly close ("snapped at his secretary not to disturb him").
"ona li pini poka luka e nanpa pi tomo ona" caused the most problems. "He almost finished dialling his home number", so 'pini poka' is aiming for "almost finished", and 'luka' is acting as "to press (a button)".
If I understand the name issues, I should be looking for: jan mute li jo e nimi 'Pota' li jo e ni: mije lili li jo e nimi 'Ari'. ona li sona pona ala e ni: nimi ona li nimi 'Ari'. ("Lots of people called Potter who had a son called Harry. He wasn't (even) sure his (they boy's) name was Harry").
Bother at 'Alol'. My mistake. I now can't decide between 'Alola' and just 'Alo'.
I'll post a full correction and next chunk soon.
Once again, I'm not dissatisfied with my attempt here; your back-translation is pretty close (modulo the excellently weird images produced by the 'ona' confusion - "They handled his moustache and felt (it)"
). I really need to try to do some work on this more regularly, to keep progress up.Ok, notes on the fixing.
"ante ni" I had as "other than this", but if just "ante" works, that's fine.
"ona li pilin ante" (in two places) is meant to be "he changed his mind". 'ona' confusion, of course.
The next sentence is fine, except that "ona" is "he", not "they". "said aggressively that they did not want his secretary to talk to them/him" is, in fact, gratifyingly close ("snapped at his secretary not to disturb him").
"ona li pini poka luka e nanpa pi tomo ona" caused the most problems. "He almost finished dialling his home number", so 'pini poka' is aiming for "almost finished", and 'luka' is acting as "to press (a button)".
If I understand the name issues, I should be looking for: jan mute li jo e nimi 'Pota' li jo e ni: mije lili li jo e nimi 'Ari'. ona li sona pona ala e ni: nimi ona li nimi 'Ari'. ("Lots of people called Potter who had a son called Harry. He wasn't (even) sure his (they boy's) name was Harry").
Bother at 'Alol'. My mistake. I now can't decide between 'Alola' and just 'Alo'.
I'll post a full correction and next chunk soon.
Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
tp is notoriously different from other languages in that it is harder to read than to speak. You can easily create brilliant expressions for all sorts of idea, but it is very difficult to get inside someone else's inventions. Hence idioms.
"He changes his mind" is just 'ona li ante e pilin ona/sama', which generally gives 'ante pilin' (by the way, 'sama' is useful in the 'ona' problem for 'ona's referring back to the subject. probably best to keep 'ona' for Dursley throughout and 'jan ni'. etc. for the occasional interloper ('meli ni' for the secretary?)
I'm not sure about "almost" though the old list does give 'poka' and the structure seems to work, though I think I was seeing a dial phone, which messes with 'luka' a bit('utala' and 'pilin' also have claims in this area).
simplify: jan mute li jo e nimi 'Pota' e jan lili Ali.' 'nimi pi jan li ni li nimi 'Ali'' 'Alo' fits best with 'Ali' and 'Api'.
"He changes his mind" is just 'ona li ante e pilin ona/sama', which generally gives 'ante pilin' (by the way, 'sama' is useful in the 'ona' problem for 'ona's referring back to the subject. probably best to keep 'ona' for Dursley throughout and 'jan ni'. etc. for the occasional interloper ('meli ni' for the secretary?)
I'm not sure about "almost" though the old list does give 'poka' and the structure seems to work, though I think I was seeing a dial phone, which messes with 'luka' a bit('utala' and 'pilin' also have claims in this area).
simplify: jan mute li jo e nimi 'Pota' e jan lili Ali.' 'nimi pi jan li ni li nimi 'Ali'' 'Alo' fits best with 'Ali' and 'Api'.
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janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
Aha, I think you've now told me that twice in one day - once here, once on FacebookjanKipo wrote:tp is notoriously different from other languages in that it is harder to read than to speak.
(tomo tawa mi li pakala).Corrected paragraph (largely as discussed but with some tweaks):
And onwards:mije Taseli li pini tawa. ona li pilin ike. ona li lukin e kulupu pi toki pi kalama lili tan ni: ona li wile toki tawa kulupu ni. taso ona li ante pilin sama.
mije taseli li tawa wawa lon poka ante nasin li tawa wawa insa pi tomo pali ona li toki utala e ni: ona li wile ala e ni: jan sitelen ona li toki tawa ona. ona li kama jo utala e ilo toki sama. ona li pini poka pali e nanpa pi tomo ona, la ona li ante e pilin sama. ona li anpa e ilo toki. ona li luka e linja uta sama li pilin. ona li nasa. nimi Pota li nasa lili. ona li pilin e ijo ni: jan mute li jo e nimi 'Pota' e jan lili Ari. ona li sona pona ala e ni: nimi pi jan lili ni li nimi 'Ari'. tenpo ala la ona li lukin e jan lili ni. ken la nimi pi jan lili ni li nimi 'Api' anu nimi 'Alo'. ona li ken pali e ni: meli Taseli li kama pilin ike. taso ni li kama ike. tenpo ali la meli Taseli li pilin ike utala tan ni: jan li toki e ijo pi meli sama ona. mije Taseli li pilin ike ala tawa meli Taseli. mije Taseli li jo e meli sama seme, la...
taso jan ni pi len selo suli...
tenpo pi kama pimeja, la pilin taso pi ijo pi ilo lupa li pali ike tawa mije Taseli. tenpo pi nanpa luka, la ona li tawa weka tan tomo, la ona li pilin ike kin. tan ni, la ona li kama tawa lon jan, lon selo pi lupa tawa.
mije lili lili ni li anpa sijelo poka, la mije Taseli li toki e "pakala". tenpo lili kama, la mije Taseli li lukin e ni: mije ni li len e len selo suli pi kule loje laso. mije ni li pilin ike ala tawa ni: sama li anpa sijelo poka. ante, la mije ni li uta pona. ona li toki kepeken pi kalama lili. jan mute pi tawa selo li lukin wawa tan kalama ni. mije lili ni li toki e ni: "jan pona, o pakala ala! tenpo suno ni, la mi ken ala pilin ike! o pilin pona mute tan ni: jan pi Sina-Sona-Seme li tawa lon tenpo pini! taso jan Mukele mute sama sina li musi lon tenpo suno ni pi pona mute!"
mije ni li sike mute e suno. mije ni li pilin pona e mije Taseli lon sijelo li tawa weka.
There's some odd stuff in here, but I have a pretty good feeling about most of it.
How do I do counterfactuals? I've completely skipped one here, in the last sentence of the tiny old man's speech - "Even Muggles like yourself should be celebrating".
Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
New stuff today, review tomorrow.
"At dusk (it took a while to work this out from the possibilities), only thoughts of drills (on a bet you meant 'pilin pi ilo lupa taso' "thoughts about drills only") worked badly for Mr. Dursley ('pal e ike'?). At five (mutter, mutter, but OK. But please either don't use commas or put them after the 'la') when he went away from the building, he felt bad indeed. Therefore, he bumped into (things do carry over, apparently -- this isn't my favorite, however) a man at the edge of the subway(?). When this tiny man ('mije pi lili lili' and the duplication is not really official -- but now everybody does it, so it is tp) laterally bodily downed (? I can see 'anpa sijelo' "fell down" but don't get the 'poka'), Mr. Dursley said "Damn!" ('e nimi 'pakala''). In a little while (or "a little while before"), Mr. Durelsy saw that the man wore a big leather coat of a purple color. The man didn't feel bad about (why not 'tan') falling down sideways (?). Otherwise (prob want, "on the contrary" which this isn't quite), he smiled. He whispered. Many people on the sidewalk (hmmm) looked hard because of this sound. The little man said " Friend, don't screw up (prob 'toki jaki' or the like)! Today, I cannot feel bad. O rejoice because You-Know-Who went("goes in the past", maybe without the 'lon', "goes to the past" "becomes as has-been") But many Muggles like you ('pi sama') enjoy on this very good day!" The man was very old. He patted Mr. Dursley well and went away.
'jan Mukeli kin pi sama sina li wile pali e musi.' or, more fussily, 'pona pi tenpo suno ni li wile e ni: jan Mukeli kin pi sama sina li musi'
"At dusk (it took a while to work this out from the possibilities), only thoughts of drills (on a bet you meant 'pilin pi ilo lupa taso' "thoughts about drills only") worked badly for Mr. Dursley ('pal e ike'?). At five (mutter, mutter, but OK. But please either don't use commas or put them after the 'la') when he went away from the building, he felt bad indeed. Therefore, he bumped into (things do carry over, apparently -- this isn't my favorite, however) a man at the edge of the subway(?). When this tiny man ('mije pi lili lili' and the duplication is not really official -- but now everybody does it, so it is tp) laterally bodily downed (? I can see 'anpa sijelo' "fell down" but don't get the 'poka'), Mr. Dursley said "Damn!" ('e nimi 'pakala''). In a little while (or "a little while before"), Mr. Durelsy saw that the man wore a big leather coat of a purple color. The man didn't feel bad about (why not 'tan') falling down sideways (?). Otherwise (prob want, "on the contrary" which this isn't quite), he smiled. He whispered. Many people on the sidewalk (hmmm) looked hard because of this sound. The little man said " Friend, don't screw up (prob 'toki jaki' or the like)! Today, I cannot feel bad. O rejoice because You-Know-Who went("goes in the past", maybe without the 'lon', "goes to the past" "becomes as has-been") But many Muggles like you ('pi sama') enjoy on this very good day!" The man was very old. He patted Mr. Dursley well and went away.
'jan Mukeli kin pi sama sina li wile pali e musi.' or, more fussily, 'pona pi tenpo suno ni li wile e ni: jan Mukeli kin pi sama sina li musi'
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janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
Hmm, not ideal then... I think I'm missing an idiom or two.
"tenpo pi kama pimeja, la pilin taso pi ijo pi ilo lupa li pali ike tawa mije Taseli." should be "He (Mr Dursley) found it a lot harder to concentrate on drills that afternoon.". So there's an issue with identifying an ongoing time rather than an instant; a minor problem with pointing at the afternoon (I agree that what I had sounds more like evening); and I'm missing an idiom for "is difficult".
Re: comma and "la". I thought this was an open question? I have to say, I also prefer them after the la, since it feels it should bind to the pre-clause, not the rest of the sentence; but I'd got the impression before the la was the Way It Was Generally Done.
"lupa tawa" as "subway" - a "moving hole". Yes, I can see that. Pity I was looking for "door", and trying to go by analogy with our earlier "lupa lukin" for window. "selo" here as "outside", which potentially isn't great.
In "anpa sijelo poka", "poka" is "almost", which we used in the previous section. However, the fact it's still causing problems here suggests it's perhaps not the best idiom. An initial thought that's just come to me is "open pi pini ala" - "started and didn't finish". So "li anpa sijelo open pi pini ala"?
Let me try a correction of the next chunk without preamble:
I didn't want "don't screw up". Would this be better? 'mije lili ni li toki e ni: "jan pona, o toki ala e nimi "mi pakala"!' Or does the earlier clarification that Mr Dursley said "Sorry" clear this up without?
Not "went" or "goes to the past"; I'm aiming for "has gone at last". "tawa pini" would be "has finished going". Maybe even "tawa kin" would be better? "Has gone indeed"?
I've been thinking about the last sentence, and I think I'd like to try: "mije ni li pilin pona kepeken luka sama e mije Taseli lon sike sijelo li tawa weka." I'm not convinced it means or hints what I want it to, but I think it's worth a try.
(I will confess to being unreasonably pleased with "Sina-Sona-Seme")
"tenpo pi kama pimeja, la pilin taso pi ijo pi ilo lupa li pali ike tawa mije Taseli." should be "He (Mr Dursley) found it a lot harder to concentrate on drills that afternoon.". So there's an issue with identifying an ongoing time rather than an instant; a minor problem with pointing at the afternoon (I agree that what I had sounds more like evening); and I'm missing an idiom for "is difficult".
Re: comma and "la". I thought this was an open question? I have to say, I also prefer them after the la, since it feels it should bind to the pre-clause, not the rest of the sentence; but I'd got the impression before the la was the Way It Was Generally Done.
"lupa tawa" as "subway" - a "moving hole". Yes, I can see that. Pity I was looking for "door", and trying to go by analogy with our earlier "lupa lukin" for window. "selo" here as "outside", which potentially isn't great.
In "anpa sijelo poka", "poka" is "almost", which we used in the previous section. However, the fact it's still causing problems here suggests it's perhaps not the best idiom. An initial thought that's just come to me is "open pi pini ala" - "started and didn't finish". So "li anpa sijelo open pi pini ala"?
Let me try a correction of the next chunk without preamble:
Not "people on the sidewalk", but "passers-by" ("people with motion beside"?). Suggestions, as ever, welcome.mije lili lili ni li anpa sijelo open pi pini ala la, mije Taseli li toki e nimi pi "mi pakala". tenpo lili kama, la mije Taseli li lukin e ni: mije ni li len e len selo suli pi kule loje laso. mije ni li pilin ike ala tan ni: sama li anpa sijelo open pi pini ala. ante kin la, mije ni li uta pona. ona li toki kepeken pi kalama sewi.
I didn't want "don't screw up". Would this be better? 'mije lili ni li toki e ni: "jan pona, o toki ala e nimi "mi pakala"!' Or does the earlier clarification that Mr Dursley said "Sorry" clear this up without?
Not "went" or "goes to the past"; I'm aiming for "has gone at last". "tawa pini" would be "has finished going". Maybe even "tawa kin" would be better? "Has gone indeed"?
I've been thinking about the last sentence, and I think I'd like to try: "mije ni li pilin pona kepeken luka sama e mije Taseli lon sike sijelo li tawa weka." I'm not convinced it means or hints what I want it to, but I think it's worth a try.
(I will confess to being unreasonably pleased with "Sina-Sona-Seme")