jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:04 am

Problems with coming in in the middle of things after a while away: irrelevant mindset.
1. It's had to figure out whether "bass, "low" "deep", etc. all go together in every languague, even in every language which has ready access on the net, since the ones I know well enough to figure out are all in the Europen frame and the ones I don't know either give definitions in the same language (so unreadable) or in English (so useless). I don't see the "natural" connection, but there may well be one. For now, I guess tp is a language in the European tradition, to be expanded if new data comes in.

2. Mindset

3. 'S1 la S2' is equally "When S1 then S2", literally "on the condition that S1, then S2", however that conditioning may be defined.

4. The only theoretical problem with yours is the "put the basic sort of thing first" principle and what you have is not two wheels but a thing with two wheels. Not sure how firm the principle is, though.

5. The no 'mute'-yes 'mute' is traditional, but 'kin' does work in some mysterious way.

6. We don't do well on the dimensions of 'suli' (etc.) I suppose they are 'sinpin' (high, tall and no deep) and 'supa' (long, wide, thick -- no distinction and no deep again), not to mention the non-spatial dimensions, When it b3ecomes a problem, a solution will emerge, I hope.

7. I confess I used your notes on this. "wild" for people tends to be 'jan soweli' and for animals 'soweli pi tomo ala', with some random 'jan (pi tan) nena' and the like.

8. Yeah, it doesn't seem worthwhile to create a word for dustbins ('poki weka' for starters) and then for their lids (no ideas).

9. Not bad for "carefully"

10. Mindset. I forget the basic meaning in favor of the usual application.

Yes, it's looking pretty good at this point.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:31 am

janChowlett wrote:kalama anpa sama kalama pi wawa linja sewi li pakala e kalama ala lon poka ona tu. ona tu li alasa e suno pi tomo tawa lon nasin - la kalama ni li kama wawa. ona tu li lukin lon sewi - la kalama ni li kama wawa mute pi nasin mu pi soweli suli pi linja uta. ilo tawa wawa pi sike tu li anpa tan sewi li kama lon nasin lon sinpin ona tu.

sike tu tawa wawa li suli. taso jan lon ona li suli mute. jan ni li suli sinpin sama jan tu li suli supa sama jan tu tu wan. ona li suli lukin pi nasin ni: ona li pakala e nasin lawa. ona li lukin sama jan soweli. jan li ken ala lukin e sinpin pi jan suli ni tan linja pimeja pi anpa sinpin en linja pimeja pi linja mute sama kasi. ona suli li jo e luka suli sama sike pi tomo tawa. noka ona li suli sama kala soweli lili lon len noka pi selo soweli. jan ni li jo e len seli mute lon luka suli wawa sama.

nimi "jan Kakuti" li toki pi jan Tanpeto pi nasin ni: ona li pini pilin e ijo ike. kin la "lon tenpo ni taso. sina kama jo e sike tu tawa wawa ni tan ma seme?"

nimi "kama jo lon tenpo lili, o jan Tanpeto sewi." li toki pi jan suli. ona li anpa tan sike tu tawa wawa pi nasin ni: ona li wile e ni: ona li pakala e ala. ona li toki e ni: "jan lili Siwisa Pimeja li pana e ona tawa mi lon tenpo lili. mi jo e ona, o jan sewi."

"pakala li lon ala lon?"

"lon ala, o jan sewi. tomo li pakala mute. taso mi tawa e ona tan insa toma lon tenpo kama ni: jan Makele mute li kama lon selo pi tomo ni. ona lili li kama lape lon sewi pi ma tomo Piso."


jan Tanpeto en jan pi pana sona Makonaka li anpa e lawa lon sewi pi len seli mute. mije pi lili mute li lon insa pi len ni li lape wawa. jan tu ni li ken taso lukin e mije ni. jan tu ni li ken lukin e kipisi lon sinpin lawa pi mije ni, lon anpa pi linja kule pimeja mute. kipisi ni li nasa lukin sama wawa linja sewi.

nimi "ni li lon ala lon*...?" li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi kalama lili.

nimi "lon" li toki pi jan Tanpeto. "ona li jo e sitelen kipisi lon tenpo ali."

"o jan Tanpeto, sina ken ala ken pali e ijo tawa ni: sina li tawa weka e sitelen kipisi ni?"

"ala. mi ken la mi wile ala pali e ni. sitelen kipisi li ken pona kepeken. mi jo e sitelen kipisi lon sewi noka sama. sitelen kipisi ni li sama sitelen ma pi tawa tomo linja lon anpa ma pi ma tomo Lonton. a. jan Kakuti, o pana e ona lili tawa mi. pali ni lon tenpo ni li pona tawa mi mute."

jan Tanpeto li kama jo e jan Ari lon luka sama li sike tawa tomo pi jan Taseli.


* I can't see a way to make this fragment obviously "Is that where...?" rather than "Is that real...?"

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:58 pm

"Dumbledore and Prof. McGonagall lowered their heads over several warn clothes. A very small boy was in the clothes and slept soundly. The two could only look [lukin taso] at the boy. The two could see the cut on his face. below his quantity of black [don't need 'kule'] hair. the cut was strange looking like a lightning bolt.
"Is he alive? [oops, another possible reading that fits naturally into this context, since 'ona' isn't really appropriate. maybe just 'lon ni?' "There?"] said Prof. McGonagall quietly.
"Yes" said Dumbledore "He will have that scar [the mark of that cut]forever"
"Oh, Dumbledore, can you do something toward making that scar go away?"
"No. If I could, I wouldn't do it. The scar can be very useful. I have a scar on the top of my foot (leg? i.e. hip?). That scar is like a map of the London Underground. Oh!, Hagrid [o] give the little one to me. Today's work [pi] is good for us."
Dumbledore took Harry in his arms and turned to the Dursley's house."

Assuming this is about right, it read very smoothly and rapidly. Nice.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:33 pm

Top notch! Only a few comments, all minor:

1) The boy is "barely visible", which is why I modified ken with taso, not lukin. It's possible there's a better phrasing, though.
2) Dumbledore's scar is on his knee. The issue here is that "noka" refers to the whole leg-foot assembly, so I was aiming for simply "high on my leg-foot-limb". An obvious word for "half" or "midpoint" would help; but really it's not that important where on the leg it is.
3) The "a." is deliberately a sentence by itself - the original has "Well." as a sort of verbal shaking of oneself. Given that, is my "o" correctly placed?
4) "pali ni lon tenpo ni li pona tawa mi mute." is the worst-understandable phrase this week. It should be "I suppose we'd better get it over with", which I was attempting to render as "Doing this now would be good for us."

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:12 pm

"barely visible" looks more like 'ken lukin lili' or maybe 'ken lili lukin'. 'taso" doesn't seem to be "only" in the diminishing sense as opposed to the exclusive one (if thye are really different ultimately).
"knee' is 'insa noka' and 'insa' gets used for the middle of all sorts of things (indeed, 'centre' is the first meaning in pu).
Still need an
o' to address Hagrid. To be sure, it can collapse with the imperative 'o', but not with the comma in the way. So, 'jan Kakuti o, o pana e ona lili tawa mi.'
or ' jan Kakuti o pana e ona lili tawa mi.'. An exclamation point on 'a' might not be a bad idea either, but that is an unrelated point.
'ni li pona mute: mi mute li pali e ni lon tempo tin.'

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:32 am

janChowlett wrote:jan Tanpeto en jan pi pana sona Makonaka li anpa e lawa lon sewi pi len seli mute. mije pi lili mute li lon insa pi len ni li lape wawa. jan tu ni li ken lukin lili e mije ni. jan tu ni li ken lukin e kipisi lon sinpin lawa pi mije ni, lon anpa pi linja pi pimeja mute. kipisi ni li nasa lukin sama wawa linja sewi.

nimi "lon ni...?" li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi kalama lili.

nimi "lon" li toki pi jan Tanpeto. "ona li jo e sitelen kipisi lon tenpo ali."

"o jan Tanpeto, sina ken ala ken pali e ijo tawa ni: sina li tawa weka e sitelen kipisi ni?"

"ala. mi ken la mi wile ala pali e ni. sitelen kipisi li ken pona kepeken. mi jo e sitelen kipisi lon insa noka sama. sitelen kipisi ni li sama sitelen ma pi tawa tomo linja lon anpa ma pi ma tomo Lonton. a. jan Kakuti o pana e ona lili tawa mi. ni li pona mute: mi mute li pali e ni lon tenpo ni."

jan Tanpeto li kama jo e jan Ari lon luka sama li sike tawa tomo pi jan Taseli.


In "lon tenpo tin", what's "tin"? I'm assuming it's just a typo for "ni", but I want to check.

nimi "mi ken - mi ken ala ken toki e nimi 'weka pona' tawa ona, o jan sewi?" li toki pi jan Kakuti.

ona li anpa e lawa suli sama pi linja mute lon sewi pi jan Ari li uta e jan Ari. uta ni li uta sama linja kiwen*. tenpo lili la jan Kakuti li kalama sama soweli tomo pakala.

nimi "o kalama lili" li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka. kin la "sina kama lape ala e jan Makele!"

nimi "m-mi pakala" li toki pi jan Kakuti. ona li kama jo e len suli pi kule sike li anpa e lawa sama insa len ni. jan Kakuti li toki e ni: "taso n-n-ni li ike mute tawa mi: jan Lili en jan Jen li moli - en jan lili Ari li tawa lon lon** tomo pi jan Makele..."

nimi "lon, lon la ni ali li ike mute. taso o lawa e sina! sina lawa ala e sina la jan li lukin e mi mute!" li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka pi kalama lili. ona li pilin e noka pi jan Kakuti pi nasin utala ala.

* also "scratchy". Rough would do, but we don't seem to have rough or smooth in the lexicon.
** Not a typo; meant to be "going to-live located-at". Does it work, does it need punctuation?

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:25 pm

Yes, 'ni'; my finger control is going fast, I fear (not a good thing for a person who only types for activity).

"I can. May I say "Farewell" to him, sir?" said Hagrid [Strictly by pu, vocatives go only at the beginning of sentences. I can see some problems with sticking them in the middle even though they clearly belong there sometimes. But I don't see problems with them at the end.]
He bowed his big hairy head over Harry and kissed him. His mouth was like bristle ("hard hair", better than "stone string" but maybe "iron wire"). For a little while, Hagrid howled like a mad dog (or at least a devastated one). ("rough" is maybe 'pi nena lili' or 'pi pini lili')
"Quiet down!" said Prof McGonagall "You'll make the Muggles."
"I'm sorry" said Hagrid. He got a robe of circular color (Is this an idiom we have discussed before?) and lowered his head into it. Hagrid said "But I hate [insert stutters at will] that Lili and James are dead and [strictly no 'en' between sentences] little Harry is going to live with Muggles" (maybe 'awen' for first 'lon').
"Indeed. In fact, all this is very bad. But get ahold of ["control"] yourself. If you don't control yourself, people will see us." whispered Prof. McGonagall. She touched Hagrid's foot (leg? thigh? this all seems kinda weird) in a friendly way [strictly, this, because of the 'pi' modifies either 'jan Kakuti' or 'noka', but I suppose it is meant to modify 'pilin'; so 'lon nasin...']

You're getting good at this. It almost reads itself.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:41 pm

Arm! Oops, should be "luka", not "noka". That would be a very different relationship....

The "robe of circular colour" is a "large spotted handkerchief" - not an idiom we've discussed. The handkerchief itself should probably be "len oko" or perhaps "len nena"; I'm not sure where else to go for "spotted".

I realise that we can't have 'en' between sentences, but is there another way to represent "something something ni: <sentence one> and <sentence two>"?

Thanks for the encouragement! We're nearing the end of the chapter now - just under two pages to go.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:30 pm

Yeah! Not that I haven't enjoyed this conversation.
Oops! I shoulda figured luka/noka out.
'len nena'? Oh! "nose"! at least 'len pi sike kule (lili)' "cloth with colored circles"
The RHE (right hand end) problem for Display (all those sentences after 'ni' that can't be fitted into the grammar of the encompassing sentence) doesn't have an official -- or even a regularly adhered to ad hoc -- solution. I tend (when I think of it) to use semicolons instead of periods and put an en dash at the end. Frankly, I'd prefer an 'en' between, but I can see the ambiguities (or at least garden paths) that ensue.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:30 am

janChowlett wrote:nimi "mi ken - mi ken ala ken toki e nimi 'weka pona' tawa ona, o jan sewi?" li toki pi jan Kakuti.

ona li anpa e lawa suli sama pi linja mute lon sewi pi jan Ari li uta e jan Ari. uta ni li uta sama linja kiwen sama nena lili. tenpo lili la jan Kakuti li kalama sama soweli tomo pakala.

nimi "o kalama lili" li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka. kin la "sina kama lape ala e jan Makele!"

nimi "m-mi pakala" li toki pi jan Kakuti. ona li kama jo e len oko suli pi sike kule li anpa e lawa sama insa len ni. jan Kakuti li toki e ni: "taso n-n-ni li ike mute tawa mi: jan Lili en jan Jen li moli; jan lili Ari li tawa lon lon tomo pi jan Makele..."

nimi "lon, lon la ni ali li ike mute. taso o lawa e sina! sina lawa ala e sina la jan li lukin e mi mute!" li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka pi kalama lili. ona li pilin e luka pi jan Kakuti pi nasin utala ala.


noka vs luka's an odd one for me to mix up. I mean, yeah, similar words for related concepts - but when I learnt them on memrise, the mnemonic offered was really good - "noka" sounds like "no car", so you'll have to walk; "luka" sounds like "Luke", as in Skywalker who lost a hand. Aaaaanyway.

jan Tanpeto li tawa lon sewi pi kiwen sinpin lili pi ma kasi li tawa lon lupa tawa tomo. ona li anpa e jan Ari lon sinpin pi lupa tawa li kama jo e sitelen toki tan len selo sama li pana e sitelen toki ni lon insa pi len sewi pi jan Ari li tawa lon jan tu ante. jan wan tu ni li awen li lukin e nena len lili lon tenpo pi kon luka luka luka*. sewi pi sijelo pi jan Kakuti li anpa li sewi. jan pi pana sona Makonaka li pini wawa li open, e oko sama. suno pi mun lili lon oko pi jan Tanpeto li lukin suno ala.

pini la nimi "a" li toki pi jan Tanpeto. "pali mi mute li pini. mi mute li jo e tan ala awen lon ni. mi mute li ken tawa lon musi."

nimi "lon" li toki pi jan Kakuti pi nasin ni: ona li toki kepeken len lon sinpin pi uta sama. kin la "mi wile weka e ilo tawa pi sike tu, ni. tenpo pimeja pona, o jan pi pana sona Makonaka, o jan sewi pi pana sona Tanpeto."

jan Kakuti li telo ala e oko sama kepeken insa pi len luka sama li tawa lon sewi pi ilo tawa wawa pi sike tu li open e wawa pi ilo tawa ni kepeken noka sama. ilo ni li kalama sama soweli suli pi linja uta li sewi lon kon li tawa weka lon tenpo pimeja.

jan Tanpeto li toki e ni: "o jan pi pana sona Makonaka, mi pilin e ni: tenpo kama lili la mi lukin e sina." ona li anpa li sewi, e lawa sama tawa jan pi pana sona Makonaka. jan pi pana sona Makonaka li kon tan nena sama tawa len oko sama**.

* Really tricky to represent time units under an hour. I believe the ancients, right down to Newton, did it by reference to bodily phenomena; so I've tried to copy that.
** ...but this is a bodily function I can't easily describe!


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