jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:15 pm

"That's often ('tenpo mute la')true" said Dumbledore. He looked grumpily over the top of his half-moon glasses (this cost me --'ilo' for 'ijo' for starters -- a mistake common even with old Esperantists -- and then off on wild tangents from there. This is one of those cases where -- to avoid drowning in 'pi' -- I would recommend fronting the determiners, 'sama', in this case, up to the pre-'pi' head 'ilo lukin sama pi wan mun' or so) "Now ('tenpo ni la'? otherwise not clear) every boy comes to feel that he is very important. In his coming walk (maybe just "travel, journeey" and no 'noka'?), in his coming talk, many people will know about him! Many people will know about him because of events of the past time of his ignorance. Do you know that if Harry becomes great in our absence, he will be very good?
Prof. McGonagall opened here mouth and changed her mind and ate nothing and said "Good. Fortunately you talk well. But, Dumbledore, how did the boy come to be here?" For a little while she looked at Dumbledore's robe. She looked as though she thought that Dumbledore could(might?) have Harry under that robe.
"Hagrid had him and came here"
"Do you think that Hagrid will do well a thing of this importance' (well, 'sama suli ni' -- 'sama' is a preposition -- at least "a thing like this important thing" but maybe also 'ijo suli pi sama ni' "an important thing like this" or even 'ijo pi suli pi sama ni' "a thing of importance similar to this". There are shades here and I am not sure which is which.)
"I think Hagrid wants to do well the thing of my existence" Dumbledore said. (I expected 'ijo pi wile mi' "what I want")
"I didn't say he was happy" said Prof, Mcgonagall, as though she didn't want to say this."But you can't say that he acts as if he didn't want to screw things up. He often ... What's that?"

"until" and "since" are unsolved problems. I think the old suggestion of finally using something other than 'kama' and 'pini' is right and that we start using 'tawa' and 'tan'. So, 'tawa (tenpo) ni: ona li ken awen' or some such.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:22 pm

Oh dear, not a good week. Let's take things piece by piece:

"mute la ni li lon" - original is simply "Exactly". I aimed for "muchly, that is true". I'd have liked to use "ni li lon mute", but I rather suspect that would be "That's in lots of places".

There's a minor diversion in the existence of both absences and opposites of properties, in that Dumbledore isn't actually grumpy (opposite of amused), just serious (absence of amused). 'ala' has to cover both. Not often a problem.

Sorry about the incorrect ilo-ijo.

"ni la" - intended to be "if this, then...". There's an argument for "tan ni la", perhaps - but that would seem to imply that "this" is true, which is not necessarily the case here ("It would be enough to turn any boy's head").

"tenpo kama pi tawa noka ona la tenpo kama pi toki ona" - should be "(Famous) before he can walk or talk!". Maaaybe your suggestion of "tawa" for time works here too? "tawa tenpo pi tawa noka ona la"?

"Many people will know about him because of events of the past time of his ignorance." - is probably just about close enough to be understandable as "Famous for something he doesn't even remember!"

"jan Ari li kama suli lon weka mi mute la jan Ari li pona mute" should be, roughly: "if Harry grows up away from us, he'll be better off". I can see that "jan Ari li pona mute" is an error - probably want "ni li pona mute tawa jan Ari"?

"moku e ala" should be "swallowed", which I freely admit is a stretch.

"Good. Fortunately you talk well." should be "Yes - yes, you're right (of course)".

We have a tense issue - Harry isn't here yet, so it's "How is the boy getting here" etc. That I think has to be a context thing?

Here I believe I most want "an important thing like this", so I'll change to "ijo suli pi sama ni".

"mi pilin e ni: jan Kakuti li wile pali pona e ijo pi lon mi" - following my ramblings about "trust", the original is "I would trust Hagrid with my life". There doesn't seem to be a noun for "life", apart from "lon".

Not "happy", "good". (Literally "I won't say his heart isn't in the right place"). The final little bit is, mercifully, OK.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:29 pm

The old list says "exactly" is 'taso', which makes a sort of sense. So, "Exactly!" would be (ni li lon)taso!' Not that I would have gotten if, since I haven't looked at that part of the list in ages. I'm afraid you are right about 'lon mute', the problem being that 'lon' as a adjective is pretty absolute.

Yeah, the two (or three or four) negations is a perennial problem (been with me since Loglan) an possibly worse here, except that we do have 'pi', so ''nasin musi ala' "not amused" (Vicky!) should be different from 'nasin pi musi ala' "grumpy" and I jumped too far.

'ni la' should work that way, but doesn't seem to -- the sense that "if" needs a real sentence is strong (there doesn't seem to be a way to collapse 'A x B la A y B' into 'A x la y B', for example.) Maybe we can start a movement by building some corpus support.

The problem with the 'kama-pini' system is that I get them all confused, reading 'tenpo kama pi tawa' as "in the future of his walking", i.e., after he is walking, rather than "in the time when his walking is future", i.e. before he is walking. If I stop and think a minute, I can sort it out, but I usually don't. I see others with similar problems, hence the thought of going to a totally different syste which is hopefully less muddling (but I know it muddles some folks anyhow).

'tan ijo ni: ona li sona kin ala e ona' or 'ona li kama ala lon lawa kin ona', etc.

Change helps a lot.

The details of ingestion are glossed over badly and this is at least accurate. maybe 'moku a ala taso'

Prob 'lon' is better for "Yes! and also for "right".

Yeah, I forget that this is still 12 years ago, as it were. I mentally have Harry under the stairs through all this.

Yes, the language of good is short on positive words, "life" being a good example, though, in this case, "existence" isn't bad. "Trust" is still another hard (and positive) word to work up.

But 'pilin pona' is an idiom for "feeling good', i.e. happy, healthy, etc. The double negations get things tangled a bit, too.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:18 pm

Manic week, so I'm just going to rework last week's chunk.

nimi 'taso!' li toki pi jan Tanpeto. ona li lukin pi nasin musi ala lon sewi pi ilo lukin sama pi sike pi pini ala. kin la 'jan mute li sona e ijo ona la mije lili ali li kama pilin e ni: ona li suli mute. tawa tenpo ni: ona li ken tawa noka la, tawa tenpo ni: ona li ken toki la - jan mute li sona e ijo ona! tenpo kama la jan mute li sona e ijo ona tan ijo ni: ona li sona kin ala e ona! sina sona ala sona e ni: jan Ari li kama suli lon weka mi mute la ni li pona mute tawa jan Ari?'

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li open e uta sama li ante e pilin sama li moku e ala taso li toki e ni: "lon - lon la sina toki lon. taso o jan Tanpeto, mije lili ni li kama lon ni tan seme?" tenpo lili la ona li lukin e len selo pi jan Tanpeto. ona li lukin pi nasin ni: ona li pilin e ni: jan Tanpeto li ken jo e jan Ari lon anpa pi len selo ni.

"jan Kakuti li jo e ona li kama lon ni."

"sina pilin ala pilin e ni: jan Kakuti li kama pali pona e ijo suli pi sama ni?"

nimi "mi pilin e ni: jan Kakuti li pali pona e ijo pi lon mi" li toki pi jan Tanpeto.

nimi "mi toki ala e ni: ona li wile pali pona," li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin ni: ona li wile ala toki e ni. kin la 'taso sina ken ala toki e ni: ona li pali pi nasin ni: ona li wile ala pakala e ijo. tenpo mute la ona li ... ... ni li seme?"

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:31 pm

Two problems on the latest read through -- when I pretty much remember what you were out to say.

'kin la 'jan mute li sona e ijo ona la mije lili ali li kama pilin e ni: ona li suli mute. tawa tenpo ni: ona li ken tawa noka la, tawa tenpo ni: ona li ken toki la - jan mute li sona e ijo ona! tenpo kama la jan mute li sona e ijo ona tan ijo ni: ona li sona kin ala e ona!' I found this ona-rous. in that I think I lost who/what 'ona' was a couple of times. 1) the first 'ona' isn't really proper because the referent , 'mije lili ali' comes after. This seems an overstrict rule, but messing with it gets some problems elsewhere. 2) prob 'sama li suli mute', even though it is the subject of the previous, encompassing, sentence. But it is clearly reflexive. 3) "Many people will know about him because he/they don't also/even/? know them/it/him."

If I have that sorted out right, ("They do not even know him"), then the 'tan ni' seems wrong, but I don't know how to say "despite the fact that, even though". Maybe just 'taso'

Looking at the "before" thing again, I have become less attracted to 'tan' and ;tawa' for this -- though still keeping them in reserve for "since" and "until".
So I am back to 'tenpo ni li kama kin: ona li ken toki li ken tawa noka la' and hope I can remember which way it goes.

Still no bright ideas about "trust"

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:45 pm

Right, let's try to discuss fixes for those before ploughing (Commonwealth spelling) on.

ona-rous. Nice :lol:

1) Hmm, vexing. So I presumably need to do "jan mute li sona e ijo pi mije lili la mije lili ni li kama pilin e ni: sama li suli mute"? Which slightly loses the "any boy" aspect, but it's still there a bit because the "mije lili" is not specified?

2) Oh, I did that just now :)

3) No, your back-translation is awry again - my fault. It should be "He will be famous (many people will know about him) because of something he doesn't even remember." The very last "ona" seems out of place, I'm not sure what I was thinking with it, unless I was using it as "it", referring to the "ijo ni". But that seems dodgy.

'tenpo ni li kama kin: ona li ken toki li ken tawa noka la' => "this time is still-to-come: he can talk and walk (...and at that time, <sentence>)"? Yees, ok. I can see that.

The best I've so far got for "trust x (to do y)" is "think that x will do well (at y)"; hence "mi pilin e ni: <x> li pali pona (e <y>)". Which is what I've used so far, but it doesn't work for you?

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:15 pm

Two (at least) generic problems here, I see.
1. Anaphora. Given we have only one anaphoric pronoun, we cannot just pronominally anaphorize every repetition, since that ends in a piddle or "he/she/it/they". On the other hand, we cannot actually repeat every openly NP, since that makes for unnecessarily wordy -- and often hard to follow -- sentences, and doesn't really work (the same expression in two places may mean different things; we have to clarify with added 'ni' and the like). My Logjamic personality wants to go to fixed pronouns (a new variable for each term, say), but that ain't even close to tp -- and is often unduly complex, when there are no problems. I guess the modified 'ona' is the best hope: marking it for male and female, singular or plural, human or living or abstract, and so on. Not ideal, but better than the alternatives that I can think of. So, something like (Logjam suppression: I am not going to say 'mije lili ali la' at the beginning to get the quantifiers straight) 'jan mute li sona e ijo pi mije lili la [maybe 'jan mute li pilin e ni: mije lili li suli sona'] ona lili li kama pilin e ni: sama li suli kin. tenpo ni kama: ona lili li ken toki en tawa noka -la jan mute li sona e ijo pi ona lili tan ijo ni: ona lili li sona ala e ona ni' [or 'jo e ona ni lon lawa'] Still messy and probably unclear, but grammatically tidy, at least (and most?).

2. Temporal relations. That whole "before he can talk and walk" is probably right, but untidy (though not so bad as 'tenpo kama pi ken pi ona lili, pi toki en tawa noka la'). And there are countless (well more than a dozen and then I run out of fingers) other temporal expressions which we haven't really sorted out and which have in the text pretty clearly been used in contradictory ways. Not a pressing problem here, but this one case reminded me of them.
"trust" still seems to involve more than expectation of a good job, though it certainly involves that. The extra measure seems to be what is involved in trusting him with my life or some such thing.

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:52 pm

Right then, I'll roll those changes in and then carry on. I am aware that the earlier sections are definitely ropier than the later; when I finish the chapter - if I still feel enthused by the idea - I may go back through and update the translations.

I haven't changed "trust" below, but perhaps "I trust <x> with <y>" (<y> can be an action) could be "I would give <y> to <x> because I think <x> will not break it / cock it up" (is that a British expression?). Which would be... uh...

"mi wile pana e <y> tawa <x> tan ni: mi pilin e ni: <x> li pakala ala e <y>". Of course, that hits nesting problems if <y> is complex and needs its own ni-phrase.

nimi 'taso!' li toki pi jan Tanpeto. ona li lukin pi nasin musi ala lon sewi pi ilo lukin sama pi sike pi pini ala. kin la 'jan mute li sona e ijo pi mije lili la ona lili li kama pilin e ni: ona li suli kin. tenpo ni kama: jan Ari li ken toki en tawa noka - la jan mute li sona e ijo ona tan ijo ni: jan Ari li jo ala e ona ni lon lawa! sina sona ala sona e ni: jan Ari li kama suli lon weka mi mute la ni li pona mute tawa jan Ari?'

jan pi pana sona Makonaka li open e uta sama li ante e pilin sama li moku e ala taso li toki e ni: "lon - lon la sina toki lon. taso o jan Tanpeto, mije lili ni li kama lon ni tan seme?" tenpo lili la ona li lukin e len selo pi jan Tanpeto. ona li lukin pi nasin ni: ona li pilin e ni: jan Tanpeto li ken jo e jan Ari lon anpa pi len selo ni.

"jan Kakuti li jo e ona li kama lon ni."

"sina pilin ala pilin e ni: jan Kakuti li kama pali pona e ijo suli pi sama ni?"

nimi "mi pilin e ni: jan Kakuti li pali pona e ijo pi lon mi" li toki pi jan Tanpeto.

nimi "mi toki ala e ni: ona li wile pali pona," li toki pi jan pi pana sona Makonaka, pi nasin ni: ona li wile ala toki e ni. kin la 'taso sina ken ala toki e ni: ona li pali pi nasin ni: ona li wile ala pakala e ijo. tenpo mute la ona li ... ... ni li seme?"


kalama anpa sama kalama pi wawa linja sewi* li pakala e kalama ala lon poka ona tu. tenpo ni: ona tu li alasa e suno pi tomo tawa lon nasin - la kalama ni li kama wawa. tenpo ni: ona tu li lukin lon sewi - la kalama ni li kama wawa mute pi nasin mu pi soweli suli pi linja uta. sike tu tawa wawa li anpa tan sewi li kama lon nasin lon sinpin ona tu.

sike tu tawa wawa li suli mute. taso jan lon sewi ona li suli mute. jan ni li suli sama jan tu li suli sijelo sama jan tu tu wan. ona li suli lukin pi nasin ni: ona li pakala e lawa. ona li lukin sama nasin ala, sama soweli**. jan li ken ala lukin e sinpin pi jan suli ni tan linja pimeja pi anpa sinpin en linja pimeja pi linja mute sama kasi. ona suli li jo e luka suli sama sike pi tomo tawa. noka ona li suli sama kala soweli lili lon len noka pi selo soweli. jan ni li jo e len seli mute lon luka suli wawa sama.

nimi "jan Kakuti" li toki pi jan Tanpeto pi nasin ni: ona li pini pilin e ijo ike. kin la "lon tenpo ni taso. sina kama jo e sike tu tawa wawa ni tan ma seme?"

nimi "kama jo lon tenpo lili***, o jan Tanpeto sewi." li toki pi jan suli. ona li anpa tan sike tu tawa wawa pi nasin ni: ona li wile e ni: ona li pakala e ala. ona li toki e ni: "jan lili Siwisa Pimeja li pana e ona tawa mi lon tenpo lili. mi jo e ona****, o jan sewi."

"pakala li lon ala lon?"

"lon ala, o jan sewi. tomo li pakala mute. taso mi tawa e ona tan insa toma lon tenpo kama ni: jan Makele mute li kama lon selo pi tomo ni. ona lili li kama lape lon sewi pi ma Piso <Bristol>."

* I'm basing this off some old forum posts - hopefully it's recognisable as "lightning" (not that that word actually appears here - it's just "rumbling")
** Tricky this. He looks wild.
*** Deliberate lack of subject here, since it's missing in the original, due to dialect. Whether the verb's clear is another matter...
**** Even in the original, the fact this "him" isn't Sirius is only contextual. However, it may need clarifying that it isn't the bike!

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:47 am

"A low sound [not clear that 'anpa' applies to sounds] like thunder destroyed no sounds [surely you mean 'ali'] around the two. [not sure about 'tenpo ni:' just floating around and why 'S la S' isn't sufficient. Of course I am reading this as "while", which may be just wrong.] While the two looked for the lights of cars on the street, this noise became strong(er). When they looked into the sky [definitely just 'la'], the noise became very strong like unto the roar of a giant cat. A powerful bicycle [motorcycle? 'ilo tawa pi sike tu' is basic bicycles, 'ilo tawa sama pi sike tu' was suggested for motorcycles a while back. "powerful traveling two wheels" seems to work here] descended from the sky and landed on the street in front of them.
The motorbike was very big. But the man on top of it ['lon' alone is probably enough] was very big [I would expect at least a 'kin' here, either "too" or "even bigger"]. This man was big like two men [tall?] and had a body the size of five. He looked so big that he broke heads. He looked untamed[?] like an animal. One cannot see the face of this huge man because of his black beard and black hair in many strands like a plant [tangled, in short]. He had big hands like car wheels. His feet were big like little whales, in leather shoes [messy, its his feet, not the whales, that are in shoes and that is what it says, but the eye is easily tricked]. He had many warm clothes on his big strong arms.
"Hagrid" said Dumbledore in relief["as if he had just stopped thinking something bad"] "Just in time. Where in the world did you get that motorbike?"
"Got it for a while, Mr. Dumbledore, sir." said the big man. He got down from the bike as if he wanted to destroy nothing [meekly?] He said "Young Sirius Black gave it to me for a while . I have it, sir."
"Is there destruction?" [Wreck anything yet?]
"No, sir. The house is badly ruined. But I moved it [no antecedent -- I assume this is Harry] from inside the house before many Muggles came to the shell of the house. He fell asleep above Bristol [ma tomo].

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:57 pm

Hurrah, I seem to have returned to being understandable; in fact, you even got the idiom behind some of my more tentative constructions, so I'm happy.

Let's tidy up the points that went slightly wrong, or are of interest.

1) Yeah, "anpa" sonically is a curious one. I've never been entirely sure whether the mapping of bass<->low, treble<->high is innate or purely conventional. I tend to lean to the former (but I'd be interested if there's a language or culture where it isn't), so "low" for sounds feels like it should work.

2) "pakala e kalama ala" - no, I mean that. The rumble "broke the silence".

3) The floating "tenpo ni"s are there because I always understood that "<full sentence> la <sentence>" is always an if-then construct. Is that not a hard-and-fast rule, then?

4) Yeah, motorcycle. I'm glad my version works, even if it's not canonical, as far as that goes.

5) I meant to drop the "mute" from the first half of "The motorbike was big. But the man on top of it [originally "astride"] was bigger". But adding a "kin" could also work.

6) Yeah, "as tall as two men and five times as wide". Actually, "at least five times", but we already know that comparisons are tricky, and it didn't seem worth it.

7) Untamed is ideal. The original is "wild".

8) As it happens, the original has Hagrid's hands be as large as dustbin lids, but I figured I could just as easily refer to something of similar size but easier to write!

9) "wanted to destroy nothing" is what I've been using for "carefully".

10) Not "Is there destruction", but "Were there any problems".


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