jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

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janChowlett
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jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:15 am

This top-post contains the complete translation so far, once each section has been checked over by you lovely better-versed people!

jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona
- jan Se Ke Lowin li sitelen
- jan Aleta li ante toki

sitelen lili wan. jan lili mije li moli ala.

jan Taseli mije en jan Taseli meli li tan e tomo nanpa tu tu pi nasin Pipe. ona li toki pona ni: jan li nasa ala. jan li pali ala e ijo nasa.

mije Taseli li lawa e kulupu Kalanin. kulupu Kalanin li pali e ilo pi lupa pali. ona li suli. ona li jo e lili, lon insa pi lawa en sijelo.
taso ona li jo e linja pi suli mute, lon sewi uta.
meli Taseli li suli ala li jo e linja jelo. ona li jo e mute lon insa pi lawa en sijelo. ni li kepeken mute tawa ni: ona li lukin e jan poka lon sewi sinpin lon tenpo mute.
jan Taseli li jo e mije lili Tateli. jan li toki e ni: mije lili li pona ali.

jan Taseli li jo e wile ona ali. taso ona li sona e ijo lon anpa selo kin. pilin ona pi ike mute li ni: jan ante li sona e ona.
ona li toki e ni: jan ante li sona e jan Pota la ona li pilin ike mute.
meli Pota li meli sama pi meli Taseli. taso ona li poka ala lon tenpo suli.
meli Taseli li toki e ni: ona li jo ala e meli sama.
ona li toki e ni tan ni: meli sama ona en mije ike ona li ante ali tan jan Taseli.
jan Pota li kama lon nasin ni la jan poka li toki e ijo. jan Taseli li pilin ike tan ijo ni.
jan Taseli li sona e ni: jan Pota li jo e meli lili kin. taso jan Taseli li lukin tenpo ala e ona.
mije lili li tan pona ante tawa ni: ona li awen weka e jan Pota.
ona li wile ala e ni: jan Tateli li poka tawa jan lili sama ni.

tenpo open musi la sewi li walo pimeja. tenpo ni la jan Taseli mije en jan Taseli meli li pini lape. tenpo ni la ala li pana e sona ni: tenpo kama la ijo li nasa lon ma ali.
mije Taseli li kalama musi li kama jo e len linja pi musi ala. jan meli Taseli li toki e sin pi jan poka li utala e jan Tateli pi kalama mute, tawa ni: on li lon e ona lon supa sewi.

ona ala li lukin e ni: waso suli jelo pi tenpo pimeja li waso lon lupa sinpin.

jan mije Taseli li kama jo e poki ona li uta e poka lawa pi jan meli Taseli li pali uta e jan Tateli. taso ona li uta e kon tan ni: jan Tateli li kalama mute li weka e pan ona tawa sinpin. jan mije Taseli li toki musi e ni: "jan lili pi ike pona". ona li tawa tan tomo li insa pi tawa tomo li tawa tan nasin pi tomo nanpa tu tu.

lon pini nasin la ona li lukin e ijo nasa. ni li soweli pi linja uta. soweli ni li lukin e sitelen pi nasin ma. tenpo lili la mije Taseli li pilin ala e ijo pi lukin ona. ona li lukin sin. soweli li lon pini ni nasin Pipe. taso mije Taseli li lukin ala e sitelen pi nasin ma. ona li pilin e seme? sitelen pi nasin ma li lon suno ike. tenpo lili la mije Taseli li open ala e oko ona. ona li lukin wawa e soweli. soweli ni li lukin wawa kin e ona. mije Taseli li tawa weka la ona li lukin e soweli kepeken ilo pi lukin sin. soweli ni li lukin sitelen e sitelen nasin "nasin Pipe". ala kin! ona li lukin kin e sitelen nasin. soweli li ken ala lukin sitelen e sitelen pi nasin ma e sitelen nasin. mije Taseli li utala lili e sama li pini pilin e ijo soweli. ona li tawa ma tomo la ona li pilin e ijo pi lawa suli taso pi ilo lupa. ona li wile jo e lawa ni lon tenpo suno ni.

taso lon selo pi ma tomo la ona li pini pilin e ijo pi ilo lupa tan ijo ante. ona li awen lon linja pi tawa tomo, pi tenpo suno la ona li lukin e jan mute pi len nasa. jan li len e len selo suli. jan pi len nasa li ike tawa mije Taseli. jan pi suli lili li len nasa lon tenpo ni! ona li pilin e ni: len ni li nasin len sin nasa. mije Taseli li utala lili e sike lawa pi tawa tomo kepeken luka ona li lukin e kulupu pi jan nasa ni lon poka. kulupu ni li toki pi kalama lili pi pilin sewi. mije Taseli li pilin utala e ni: jan ni tu li lili ala. tenpo lili la ona li sike e suno. taso tenpo mute la jan ni li sike e suno. jan ni li len e len selo suli pi kule pi kiwen laso jelo. taso tenpo ni la mije Taseli li pilin e ni: ona li pali musi nasa. jan ni li wile jo e mani tawa ijo. linja pi tawa tomo li tawa. tenpo mute lili la mije Taseli li tawa lon ma awen pi tawa tomo pi kulupu Kalanin li pilin e ijo ilo lupa sin.

tenpo ali la mije Taseli li supa lon supa sewi tomo nanpa luka tu tu. lupa lukin li lon monsi ona. ante, la tenpo pi kama suno la ona li pilin ala e ijo pi ilo lupa. ona li lukin ala e ni: waso pi tenpo pimeja li waso lon tenpo suno. taso jan mute pi lon nasin li lukin e ni. waso mute li waso lon sewi ona la ona mute li luka tawa waso ni li lukin pi uta open. tenpo pimeja kin ala la ona mute li lukin e waso ni. taso mije Taseli li jo e tenpo pi kama suno pi nasa ala. tenpo pi kama suno ni li jo ala e waso pi tenpo pimeja. ona li toki utala e jan luka. ona li pana e toki suli mute kepeken ilo toki li toki utala mute. tenpo pi kama suno ali la ona li pilin pona mute. tenpo moku la ona li pilin e ni: ona li tawa esun pan pi lon poka ante nasin, tawa ni: ona li mani e jan esun tawa pan suwi.

ona li pini pilin e ijo jan pi len selo suli. taso ona li tawa selo pi kulupu pi jan ni lon poka pi esun pan. ona li lukin utala e kulupu ni. ona li sona ala e tan ni: kulupu ni li ike tawa ona. kulupu ni li toki pi kalama lili pi pilin sewi. ona li lukin ala e poki pi kama jo mani. ona li tawa noka lon selo pi ona mute li jo e pan suwi sike lon poki la ona li kute lili e toki pi ona mute.

'... jan Pota. mi kute e ni...'
'... jan lili ona. jan Ari...'
Last edited by janChowlett on Thu May 12, 2016 8:41 am, edited 7 times in total.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:15 pm

prob just 'Se Ke' or 'Seje Keje'
Interesting. I would have put the gender markers before the name, but this seems to make a point better. 'Pipet' is still not tp, either 'Pipe' or 'Pipeta' (or translate)
prob (apparently) 'jo e lili, lon insa pi lawa en sijelo' maybe 'sinpin' "torso" rather than 'sijelo' "whole body"?
some of those 'jan's (prob all) should be 'ona' or at least 'jan ni' (new 'jan's suggest new people).
'jo e linja pi sewi uta, pi suli mute' direct oject (what he has) gets 'e' in front. "a very long hair above his mouth" the 'suli suli' excessive is not standard (though growing) but does need 'pi', by the usual rules (commas optional but useful). Alternatively, 'jo e linja pi suli mute, lon sewi uta'
'li jelo lina' or (prob better) 'jo e linja jelo'
'ona li jo e mute lon insa pi lawa en sijelo'. I have long since lost my originals but I suspect it was something about "She had a long neck so she could look down on her neighbors" 'ona li jo e mute, lon insa pi lawa en sijelo, tawa ni: ona li lukin anpa e jan poka' or so.
'jo e jan lili' 'jan (good here for "they say" or so) li toki e ni: jan lili mije ni li pona mute ala'
read tp FAQ 1 on tpnimi.blogspot.com

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:37 am

Thanks - I'll edit the top post in a bit.

janKipo wrote:prob just 'Se Ke' or 'Seje Keje'

OK. I did think the aie cluster was a bit weird. In my defence, I was using the transliterator on tokipona.net

Interesting. I would have put the gender markers before the name, but this seems to make a point better.

Thanks. Yes, I think I would use jan mije Name normally - it's like the difference between Dursley-man and male Dursley. I should probably change the subsequent uses in the text to jan mije Taseli.

'Pipet' is still not tp, either 'Pipe' or 'Pipeta' (or translate)

Ok. Syllables are all (cons)-vowel-(n), yes? I'll bear that in mind.

prob (apparently) 'jo e lili, lon insa pi lawa en sijelo' maybe 'sinpin' "torso" rather than 'sijelo' "whole body"?

...yeah, I can see that. I'm not entirely confident with comma use yet. janPije's dictionary on tokipona.net lists sijelo as torso, where the closest sinpin gets is "front".

some of those 'jan's (prob all) should be 'ona' or at least 'jan ni' (new 'jan's suggest new people).

Noted, willfix.

'jo e linja pi sewi uta, pi suli mute' direct oject (what he has) gets 'e' in front. "a very long hair above his mouth" the 'suli suli' excessive is not standard (though growing) but does need 'pi', by the usual rules (commas optional but useful). Alternatively, 'jo e linja pi suli mute, lon sewi uta'

Yep, ok. I think I like your last alternative best: "very big hair, located above the mouth"

'li jelo lina' or (prob better) 'jo e linja jelo'

Ok. Your first options is like the difference between "is haired yellowly" (mine) and "is yellow of hair" (yours), isn't it? But your second option is better, yes.

'ona li jo e mute lon insa pi lawa en sijelo'. I have long since lost my originals but I suspect it was something about "She had a long neck so she could look down on her neighbors" 'ona li jo e mute, lon insa pi lawa en sijelo, tawa ni: ona li lukin anpa e jan poka' or so.

The original is "Mrs Dursley was thin and blonde and had very nearly twice the usual amount of neck, which came in very useful as she spent so much of her time craning over garden fences, spying on the neighbors." Obviously, I've paraphrased, and skipped the "which came in very useful" construction entirely, mostly because using a complex clause as an implied subject seems tricky in tp. Your "had a lot of neck, for this purpose: ..." works, but it'd be nice to emphasise that it happens to be useful, rather than it being designed for a specific purpose. I suppose "ona li jo e mute, lon insa pi lawa en sijelo. ona li pona tawa ni:" might work, but then it's not clear whether the "ona" means Mrs Dursley, or the preceding sentence.

'jan (good here for "they say" or so) li toki e ni: jan lili mije ni li pona mute ala'

How does this work? "They say this: that little boy is not (very good)"? I can't make that fit the original sense at all (which is "in their opinion there was no finer boy anywhere", in case it's a simple case of you misremembering the book!)

read tp FAQ 1 on tpnimi.blogspot.com

Yeah. I'm actually pretty happy with what li and e do; I just sometimes forget them, probably because they don't map directly to any part of English speech. I'll get them by habit at some point :). Nice FAQs, though.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:03 am

janChowlett wrote:Thanks - I'll edit the top post in a bit.

janKipo wrote:prob just 'Se Ke' or 'Seje Keje'

OK. I did think the aie cluster was a bit weird. In my defence, I was using the transliterator on tokipona.net

Disturbing. I have sent people to that but it seems to have a flaw, even a fundamental -- if not serious -- one.

prob (apparently) 'jo e lili, lon insa pi lawa en sijelo' maybe 'sinpin' "torso" rather than 'sijelo' "whole body"?

...yeah, I can see that. I'm not entirely confident with comma use yet.

The sure commas are before the prepositional phrases at the end, as here. The ones in modifier strings are harder to pin down.


'ona li jo e mute lon insa pi lawa en sijelo'. I have long since lost my originals but I suspect it was something about "She had a long neck so she could look down on her neighbors" 'ona li jo e mute, lon insa pi lawa en sijelo, tawa ni: ona li lukin anpa e jan poka' or so.

The original is "Mrs Dursley was thin and blonde and had very nearly twice the usual amount of neck, which came in very useful as she spent so much of her time craning over garden fences, spying on the neighbors." Obviously, I've paraphrased, and skipped the "which came in very useful" construction entirely, mostly because using a complex clause as an implied subject seems tricky in tp. Your "had a lot of neck, for this purpose: ..." works, but it'd be nice to emphasise that it happens to be useful, rather than it being designed for a specific purpose. I suppose "ona li jo e mute, lon insa pi lawa en sijelo. ona li pona tawa ni:" might work, but then it's not clear whether the "ona" means Mrs Dursley, or the preceding sentence.

Reference to the whole previous sentence (probably what is meant here) would be 'ni' (FAQ 5 passim) 'kepeken' is the adjective for "useful"
"craning her neck over garden fences, spying on the neighbors" is just fraught with tricky vocabulary and contructions. It makes an interesting challenge, but one for leisure times.
'jan (good here for "they say" or so) li toki e ni: jan lili mije ni li pona mute ala'

How does this work? "They say this: that little boy is not (very good)"? I can't make that fit the original sense at all (which is "in their opinion there was no finer boy anywhere", in case it's a simple case of you misremembering the book!)

I did misremember and misread the context here, too. So, the "they" here is the Dursleys, in which case, 'ona' is definitely called for. But what they say is not what you said, which really is "This boy is not very good" . Comparatives are hard in tp 'jan mije lili ni li pona mute. jan mije lili ante le pona lili'. I would go with 'jan mije lili li pona ali' "totally good", a sort of superlative.

read tp FAQ 1 on tpnimi.blogspot.com

Yeah. I'm actually pretty happy with what li and e do; I just sometimes forget them, probably because they don't map directly to any part of English speech. I'll get them by habit at some point :). Nice FAQs, though.

Thanks. But FAQ 1 does does some careful connections with English that may be helpful.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:04 pm

Ok, thanks. I've updated again, to go for "ni li kepeken mute pi ni: ona li lukin tenpo mute e sewi sinpin e jan poka." I'm happy to concede that the "craning her neck..." phrase is a difficult one, so I'll try approaching it by stages! Hopefully what I have there is something like "that was very useful for this: she looks a lot of the time over walls and at her neighbours".

I'll have a full read of your FAQ 1 soon, and try some more translation tomorrow. For now, how would you translate "also", in "I have a fish, but I also have a cat"?

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:28 pm

Prepositional phrases to the end and 'pi' needs two words after and is very vague, so use 'tawa', which doesn't have those problems.
ni li kepeken mute tawa ni: ona li lukin e jan poka lon sewi sinpin lon tenpo mute'
mi jo e kala. taso mi jo e soweli kin (with whatever adjectives you want after 'soweli', e.g. 'pi linja uta' but countless others.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:43 am

Excellent, thanks. I did wonder about kin. And I'm learning that "lon" is a very useful word!

Let's have some more translation. There are quite a few turns of phrase I couldn't even have a stab at, here:

jan Taseli li jo e wile ona ali. taso ona li sona e ijo lon anpa selo kin. pilin ona pi ike mute li ni: jan ante li sona e ona.
ona li toki e ni: jan ante li sona e jan Pota la ona li pilin ike mute.
jan meli Pota li jan meli sama pi jan meli Taseli. taso ona li poka ala lon tenpo suli.
jan meli Taseli li toki e ni: ona li jo ala e jan meli sama.
ona li toki e ni tan ni: jan meli sama ona en mije ike ona li ante ali tan jan Taseli.
jan Pota li kama lon nasin ni la jan poka li toki e ijo. jan Taseli li pilin ike tan ijo ni.
jan Taseli li sona e ni: jan Pota li jo e jan lili meli kin. taso jan Taseli li lukin tenpo ala e ona.
jan mije lili li tan pona ante tawa ni: ona li awen weka e jan Pota
ona li wile ala e ni: jan Tateli li poka tawa jan lili sama ni.

"taso ona li sona e ijo kin (...?)" - "but they also had a secret". I can't figure how to render "secret" - I suspect I want "thing that no-one else knows"
"sister" is hard to translate, when the only relational word is "mama" :shock: . In the end I went for "jan lili meli pi mama ona" - "daughter of her parent"
Is "pi mama pi" allowed? That is, is the second part of a pi-phrase allowed to be another pi-phrase?
I'm having trouble with "because" - "Mrs Dursley pretended she didn't have a sister, because her sister and her good-for-nothing husband were as unDursleyish as it was possible to be". "la" lets me do "complex-phrase, so another-complex-phrase", but "phrase because phrase" seems impossible?
Counterfactuals are also difficult. "The Dursleys shuddered to think what the neighbours would say..." is ok - but then "if the Potters arrived in the street". It's not the object of "say", or a topic for "e ni".
The penultimate sentence is similar to the "because" issue. "This boy was another good reason for keeping the Potters away".

Tired. Probably made more mistakes than necessary.
Last edited by janChowlett on Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:53 am

I've got to find my copy (it got shifted to make room for Song of Ice and Fire, but I don't know whither).
prob 'wile ona ali' "all their desires" or 'ali pi wile ona', pretty much the same. I'm not sure what the difference might be, if any.
"secret" the closest I have is "hidden" 'lon anpa selo' "under cover" so 'ijo pi lon anpa selo' Maybe 'kin' still has a place.
prob 'pilin ona pi ike mute' "their worst fear" or so.
"sister" is 'jan meli sama' (which may include cousins) but, yes, the second part of a 'pi' phrase may be a 'pi' phrase (FAQ 5) 'lon tenpo mute' or prob 'lon tenpo suli' "for a long time" rather than "often"
'tan ni:' because" at the end of line four, but that doesn't work because it goes with 'toki', not with the next sentence, but we can't have two 'ni:' together, so I suspect you have to put in a bridge sentence: 'ona li toki e ni tan ni:' or so.
'mije ike ona' (possessives tend to be after just about everything else, see FAQ 5 passim)
'sama ala mute jan Taseli' ('sama' is a preposition). or 'li ante mute tan jan Taseli' or, looking at your note, 'ante ali tan...'
"The Dursleys shuddered to think what the neighbours would say..." is ok - but then "if the Potters arrived in the street". It's not the object of "say", or a topic for "e ni"." It's a strange construction even in English. unpacking it gets something like "They shuttered because they thought about the sayings of their neighbors on the condition that the Potters came into the street" Sloppy tp gives 'ona li pilin ike (I leave out the "they thought" part") tan toki pi jan poka, pi lon kama pi jan Pota, pi lon nasin ni' Another approach is more stylish and goes to a deeper level: 'jan Pota li kama lon nasin ni la jan poka li toki e ijo' jan Taseli li pilin ike tan ijo ni.' Loses zip but gets the point more clearly.
'jo e jan mije kin' "had a son,in addition" (to their obvious other flaws or just like the Dursleys) "They did not see him" Not true obviously, except in a fairly metaphorical sense. More "did not let him be seen", maybe "hidden" again 'ona li awen e ona lon anpa selo' or 'ona li ken ala e ni: jan li lukin e ona.'
'jan mije lili li tan pona ante tawa ni: ona li awen weka e jan Pota.
"They did not want the Dursleys to bring this child relative close" ? I would have exchanged the 'jan Taseli' and the 'ona' for clarity.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:34 pm

janKipo wrote:I've got to find my copy (it got shifted to make room for Song of Ice and Fire, but I don't know whither).

Therein lies the rub. I could post everything I'm translating from, but that would be even more dubious in terms of copyright than translating it into a language that (not to seem dismissive) hardly anyone speaks!

I've made some edits. All your corrections make sense, except for:
"They did not want the Dursleys to bring this child relative close" ? I would have exchanged the 'jan Taseli' and the 'ona' for clarity.

Which I think is another mis-memory of the original (plus the unfortunate similarity between Taseli and Tateli!). The original is "they didn't want Dudley mixing with a child like that". It also is couched as an expansion on the former "another good reason", but I didn't feel too bad losing that subtlety.

I'll try to get some more done this week.

janKipo
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:38 pm

Thanks. Sorry I misread that, which now seems pretty good, though "Dudley brings a child like that near" is probably too strong. They just don't want him to be near: 'jan Tateli li poka tawa jan lili sama ni'.


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