jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Translation: Toki Pona content in other languages
Tradukado: Tokipono en aliaj lingvoj
janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:42 am

Oh, of course. Direct object vs preposition and indirect object. That makes sense.

Carrying on!

tenpo open musi la sewi li walo pimeja. tenpo ni la jan Taseli mije en jan Taseli meli li pini lape. tenpo ni la ala li pana e sona ni: tenpo kama la ijo li nasa lon ma ali.
mije Taseli li kalama musi li kama jo e len linja pi musi ala. jan meli Taseli li toki e sin pi jan poka li utala e jan Tateli pi kalama mute, tawa ni: on li lon e ona lon supa sewi.
ona ala li lukin e ni: waso suli jelo pi tenpo pimeja li waso lon lupa sinpin.
jan mije Taseli li kama jo e poki ona li uta e poka lawa pi jan meli Taseli li pali uta e jan Tateli. taso ona li uta e kon tan ni: jan Tateli li kalama mute li weka e pan ona tawa sinpin. jan mije Taseli li toki musi e ni: "jan lili pi ike pona". ona li tawa tan tomo li insa pi tawa tomo li tawa tan nasin pi tomo nanpa tu tu.

I feel a bit more confident about this chunk, and I had to do some interesting invention to get some of the ideas across, including:
* "ijo ala li pana sona" for "nothing suggested"
* "kama jo" in two places for varying senses of "to pick up"
* "len linja" for "tie".
* "jan lili ike pona" for "Little tyke" - the sense of "small admirably-bad person"
Last edited by janChowlett on Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:41 am, edited 3 times in total.

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janTepanNetaPelin
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:13 pm

Hello Chowlett,

I'm still a beginner myself, but as far as I know:


You don't need "ijo" in "(ijo) ala". So "ala li pana e sona" (with "e").

"ijo nasa li lon ma ali" with "li"

You don't need "jan" in "(jan) meli" or "(jan) mije".

I don't understand the sentence where Ms. Taseli is talking about the neighbor. :/ (Are Tateli and Taseli two different families?)

"ona ala li lukin e ni": The position of "ala" suggests, that "not they" (but someone else) saw it. Probably better: "ona li lukin ala e ni".

You apparently used "waso" in order to say "to fly". I like the idea. :)

Typo (I suppose): kama jo e *poki -> poka

"uta e kon" (with "e")

I don't understand "weka e pana lon sinpin". :/

"admirably-bad" might be "ike pona", in which case an "admirably-bad child" would be a "jan lili pi ike pona". (A "little person of good evil", if you will.)

I'd prefer "li lon insa" (with "lon") over "li insa", which sounds like "is the innards" to me.


I hope this helps.

Have fun!

jan Tepan
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

janChowlett
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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:22 pm

janTepanNetaPelin wrote:You don't need "ijo" in "(ijo) ala". So "ala li pana e sona" (with "e").

Fair point on the "ijo". I believe I did accidentally just miss the "e", but on review I think it could maybe go either way? "to give, and that being given is knowledge"; or "to knowledge-give". Not sure, though.

"ijo nasa li lon ma ali" with "li"

I don't think so. That would mean "strange things are in all the land". I could see that it should maybe be "ijo li nasa lon ma ali" - "things are strange in all the land".

You don't need "jan" in "(jan) meli" or "(jan) mije".

D'oh. I've been doing this throughout, but you're right.

I don't understand the sentence where Ms. Taseli is talking about the neighbor. :/ (Are Tateli and Taseli two different families?)

No - the family is the Dursleys - "Taseli"; they have a son called Dudley - "Tateli". The similarity is unfortunate. The original sentence is "Mrs Dursley gossiped away happily as she wrestled a screaming Dudley into his high chair", which I've attempted to render as "Mrs Dursley talked about news of their neighbours and fought very noisy Dudley at the high chair".

"ona ala li lukin e ni": The position of "ala" suggests, that "not they" (but someone else) saw it. Probably better: "ona li lukin ala e ni".

Does it? I didn't know that. Any reference for that - I'm not as widely read as I should be? The original here is "None of them noticed..."

You apparently used "waso" in order to say "to fly". I like the idea. :)

Thanks. Not mine originally, I think; although I can't find where I saw it now.

Typo (I suppose): kama jo e *poki -> poka

No, "Mr Dursley picked up his briefcase" - that is, "poki" = "bag"

"uta e kon" (with "e")

Yep, good spot.

I don't understand "weka e pana lon sinpin". :/

That's probably partially because I have a typo - it should be "pan". "throwing his cereal at the walls"

"admirably-bad" might be "ike pona", in which case an "admirably-bad child" would be a "jan lili pi ike pona". (A "little person of good evil", if you will.)

I'd prefer "li lon insa" (with "lon") over "li insa", which sounds like "is the innards" to me.

Subtleties here which I'm not sure about. I'm hoping jan Kipo will show up with his insightful comments too.

I hope this helps.

Thanks, yes - all advice helps!

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janTepanNetaPelin » Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:49 pm

janChowlett wrote:I believe I did accidentally just miss the "e", but on review I think it could maybe go either way? "to give, and that being given is knowledge"; or "to knowledge-give". Not sure, though.


Possibly. Or "to give on purpose"? (This kind of uncertainty is why I use adverbs less often.)

The original sentence is "Mrs Dursley gossiped away happily as she wrestled a screaming Dudley into his high chair", which I've attempted to render as "Mrs Dursley talked about news of their neighbours and fought very noisy Dudley at the high chair".


Ah! Thanks for the clarification. In this case you should put "kalama mute" not right after "jan Tateli" (which translates to "many noisy Dudleys") but after "utala": "utala pi kalama mute".

Does it? I didn't know that. Any reference for that - I'm not as widely read as I should be? The original here is "None of them noticed..."


Reference: lipu pi jan Pije (it's close to Sonja's book, the "pu"), lesson 8:
Toki Pona's negative word, ala, goes after the verb.

That's probably partially because I have a typo - it should be "pan". "throwing his cereal at the walls"


Ah! I would use "tawa" instead of "lon" then.

mi tawa! : )
https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona (mi sitelen e lipu ni pi toki pona)
mi jan Tepan. mi pu. mi weka e jan nasa Kipo e jan nasa Lope.

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:28 pm

Tepan caught a lot.
'pana e sona ni' ('pi' needs two words after)
? Mr. Dursley laughed and got an unfunny tie"?
'jan Tateli pi kalama mute, pi lon supa sewi' (not the best tp way to say this maybe).
'lon' no to good for "through" , maybe 'waso tawa insa, kepeken lupa sinpin"
'lukin uta'?
'uta kon'?
weka e poki'?
Mr. D. did not throw away his house, he left it 'tawa tan tomo' or so and similarly with the driveway.

The 'pana sona' trick is way to advanced for right now and it basically makes a noun "teacher" in any case.
'ala' is tricky, but 'ona ala' is exactly "none of them"

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:43 pm

Excellent, thanks.

"Mr. Dursley laughed and got an unfunny tie" - actually, surprisingly close. The original is: "Mr Dursley hummed as he picked out his most boring tie"

The "pi kalama mute" point is well taken. I'm not quite clear what "utala e jan Tateli pi kalama mute, pi lon supa sewi" would mean, though - "fought the Dudley who is very noise and located at the high chair"? Doesn't convey that the fight was to get him into it in the first place.

The tawny owl ("large yellow night-bird") doesn't fly through the window: "None of them noticed a large tawny owl flutter past the window". Hence my choice of "lon ... sinpin" - "flew located in front of the window".

"lukin uta" - jan Pije's dictionary list "lukin" as a pre-verb meaning "to try"; hence (hopefully) "li lukin uta" - "tried to kiss".

"uta kon" is missing the e, making it "kissed the air" (original is "but missed", but tp appears to lack concepts of hit, miss, success or failure).

"weka e pana" is also a typo, should be "weka e pan" - "threw his cereal"

I'll fix up the rest tomorrow. Think I might start sticking it all in the top post, too.

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:11 am

So, about getting Dudley into the high chair, we have to fall back (good tp move) to two sentences: . 'utala e jan Tateli pi kalama mute, tawa ni: on li lon e ona lon supa sewi'

I forgot about that strange use of 'lukin' for "try". It is not common. I use 'pali'.

Success and failure seem to be 'pini pona' and 'pini ike' generally. We often use 'utala' for "hit" as in strike a blow, but it doesn't seem to carry over to hitting a mark, say. "Miss" is even less clear (try to hit and fail).

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:00 pm

Drat. I had the next section all typed up, then the browser lost my cookie on submit. Now I have to do it again :(

lon pini nasin la ona li lukin e ijo nasa. ni li soweli pi linja uta. soweli ni li lukin e sitelen nasin. tenpo lili la mije Taseli li toki ala e ijo pi lukin ona. ona li lukin lon tenpo ante. soweli pi kule linja li lon pini ni nasin Pipe. taso mije Taseli li lukin ala e sitelen nasin. ona li toke e seme? sitelen nasin li tan ike suno. tenpo lili la mije Taseli li open ala e oko ona li lukin wawa e soweli. soweli ni li lukin wawa e ona. mije Taseli li tawa weka la ni: ona li lukin e soweli kepeken selo pi ante suno. soweli ni li lukin sitelen e selo nimi "nasin Pipe". ala kin! ona li lukin e selo nimi. soweli li ken ala pi lukin sitelen e sitelen nasin e selo nimi. mije Taseli li utala lili e ona li pini toki e soweli. ona li tawa ma tomo. ni la ona li toki ala e ante pi ni: lawa suli pi ilo lupa. ona li wile jo e ni lon tenpo suno sama.

... I think that's roughly what I had before.

Interesting constructions this time:
* "tan ike suno" - "from bad light" - is about as close as I can get to "it must have been a trick of the light"
* "selo pi ante suno" - "surface of opposite light" - for mirror
* "ala kin" for the interjection "no" in "thing a - no, thing b". I have no idea if it's valid, but it felt right :)
* The passage requires the distinction of "looking at" and "reading", but tp uses "lukin" for both. So, I invented "lukin sitelen" to distinguish them
* The final sentence of "As he drove towards town he thought of nothing except a large order of drills he was hoping to get that day" is rather complex. I appear to have arrived at "He went towards town. As he did so, he didn't think of something other than this: a large order of hole-tools. He hoped to have that, the same day."

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janKipo » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:25 pm

At the end of the street he says a strange thing. This was a cat. The cat looked at the street sign. For a little while, Mr. Dursley didn't talk about his vision. He looked at a different time. A tiger was at the end of Privet Street. But Mr. Dursley did not see the street sign. What did he say? (typo 'toki') The street sign was from bright evil. (surely just 'lon suno ike' ). For a little while, Mr. Dursley did not open his eyes and looked hard at the cat (this doesn't flow well as a conjunction, since it looks like he is looking hard with his closed eyes). The cat looked hard at him. (maybe "stared"? and a 'kin' or 'sin' looks appropriate here). If/when Mr Dursley went away, this. (grammar wrong here: need a sentence, presumably just the one after the 'ni:') He saw the cat using the skin of a bright difference. (??? ah, but your explanation is for 'suno ante' and doesn't work well there, since 'ante' is not "opposite" -- though I am not sure what is. the 'selo' is probably good, though). The cat was reading the name surface "Privet Street" (prob. "Lane") (prob 'lukin sitelen e nimi ... kepeken selo' or some such) NO! ('ala kin' is good, 'ala a!' might be enough) It was looking at the name surface. (Is the point here that it is not reading, but just looking at? 'lukin kin' seems about right in that case.) Cats can't read street signs and name surfaces. (I won't go into the logical horrors here -- that is forthcoming -- but for now it works, as soon as I figure out what 'selo nimi' -- or 'nimi selo' -- is supposed to mean). Mr. Dursley fought it a little (the cat?, this seems to wander here) and stopped saying the cat (surely 'toki e ijo soweli' "talk about the cat" -- and probably 'pilin' rather than 'toki' at that). He went to the city. There he did not say this difference (again, I suspect 'pilin' rather than 'toki' and probably 'pilin ala e ijo pi ijo ante ni' this is very roundaboutish. Presumably just 'pilin e ijo pi ni taso:' )a large order of hole tools. (not sure 'lawa' is right for this sort of "order" but then ...) He wanted to have (prob 'kama jo') this on the same day" (could have skipped the 'ni' and gone straight to the tool order)

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Re: jan Ari Pota en kiwen pi jan sona

Postby janChowlett » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:10 pm

:lol: :lol:

Well, I'm making progress. Again, a lot of what I've evidently written is actually within spitting distance of what I was trying to write. Here are some of the major discrepancies - some, I'm at fault; some, I think I had a pretty good stab at!

* I had intended "sitelen nasin" to be a map (a "street drawing"). I can see street sign, though (a "street writing").
* He didn't look at a different time, he looked again. Which, thinking about it, should probably have been "lukin lon tenpo sin", or maybe even just "lukin sin".
* Tiger! :lol:. No, it's a tabby cat, but I can see the problem here. I should probably just have stuck with soweli.
* There are a number of instances here where "toki" should be "think", which jan Pije lists it as. But the problem is, "say" makes just as much sense, so it's hard to indicate the correct meaning. Mind you, I should probably have come up with a non-literal translation for "What was he thinking?".
* I do seem to still slip on modifier order. Need to watch that.
* I was indeed aiming for "stared". I like "kin" here.
* I hadn't realised that the left half of "la" could be a complete sentence. That does ease some constructions.
* I'd thought that I'd seen "opposite" on ante's list of meanings, but I can't find it now. Maybe "ante ali"? so, "kepeken selo pi ante ali suno"?
* You've got the point of "lukin" vs "lukin sitelen". Again, I like your "kin".
* "selo nimi" was intended to be "sign". I think I got carried away with "selo nimi 'Pipe nasin' ", and tied the nimi to selo, when I wanted just the selo.
* Ah, the problems of a single third-person pronoun. Mr Dursely fought himself - or rather, "gave himself a shake". And stopped thinking about the cat.
* Oh! "taso" also means "only"? Ok, then yes, I can de-complicate that last sentence.

I'll try a rewrite of the relevant parts when I get a mo.


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