jan suli mute en telo suli | The Old Man and the Sea

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janMapaja
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jan suli mute en telo suli | The Old Man and the Sea

Postby janMapaja » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:08 pm

Translation attempt from Ernest Hemingway's novel: http://www.gutenberg.ca/ebooks/hemingwa ... a-00-t.txt

mi wile e ni: ni li pona tawa sina mute! o toki mi e ni: pona ala pona?

jan suli mute en telo suli

ni li jan. tenpo mute mute la, ona li sike e suno. jan ni taso li weka e kala tan telo, lon tawa telo pi luka telo, kepeken tomo tawa telo lili. tenpo mun suli mute la, ona li kama jo ala e kala. tenpo open la – tu pi tenpo pini ni la – jan lili li lon poka pi jan suli ni. taso tenpo suli la ona mute li jo ala e kala. tan ni la, mama li toki tawa jan lili e ni: jan suli ni li pilin kin Salajo. nimi Salajo pi toki pi ma ona li wile toki e ni: tenpo mute la, ijo ike mute anu ala pona li kama e jan. jan lili li kute e wile mama la, li tawa tomo tawa telo ante. tenpo suno mute lili la, jan pi tomo tawa ni li kama jo e kala pona tu wan. jan lili li lukin e jan suli ni li pilin ike tan ni: tenpo suno ali la, jan suli li kama tomo tan tomo tawa lili li jo ala kala. tenpo ali la, jan lili li tawa jan suli li pali e ijo pona ni: ona li jo e ilo tan tomo tawa telo. ilo li linja sike li palisa weka kala li ilo utala kala li sinpin len. sinpin len ni li pakala lili li sike e palisa pi tomo tawa telo. lukin pi len ni li pilin toki e ni: tenpo ali la, ona li anpa e jan ni a...

janKipo
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Re: jan suli mute en telo suli | The Old Man and the Sea

Postby janKipo » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:44 pm

'toki e ni tawa mi:'
maybe 'jan li lon'
Not sure if this repetition for emphasis or just "very many" but at least in the latter case. 'tenpo pi mute mute'
more like 'kam jo' than 'weka' since he keeps the fish presumably.
"on voyages of wet feet?
"at the beginning time, two of the last times" ? neither structure nor point too clear.
probably just 'ona tu'
'toki e ni tawa jan lili' (prep phrase after DO)
"salajo' doesn't appear to be a propername, so not fit to go in here. But loval color and all... 'nimi 'Salajo'
'anu pona ala' 'kama tawa jan.'
kama tawa tomo jo ala e kala.
"the tool is a round line and a fish distant shaft and a fish fighting tool and a cloth front" ?
"this cloth front is slight damaged and makes the shaft of the boat a circle."
"The sight of this cloth thinks aloud that it defeats this man"
I haven't checked the English, but a lot of this is pretty clear, though some is very obscure.

janMapaja
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:05 pm

Re: jan suli mute en telo suli | The Old Man and the Sea

Postby janMapaja » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:57 pm

Thanks! sina pona mute :)

janKipo wrote:"on voyages of wet feet?


lon tawa telo pi luka telo = in the water current of the water arm (loosely meaning Gulf Stream)

janKipo wrote:"at the beginning time, two of the last times" ? neither structure nor point too clear.


tenpo open la – tu pi tenpo pini ni la = at the beginning, (i.e.) half of that past time

In the original, the old man "had gone 84 days now without taking a fish". But "in the first
40 days
", that is, half of that time, "a boy had been with him". I thought I should try conveying such meaning without using numbers. Thus "tu pi tenpo pini ni la" for "40 days" and "tenpo mun suli mute la" (for several months) for "84 days". Do you reckon any other way to say this without resorting to figures?

janKipo wrote:"salajo' doesn't appear to be a propername, so not fit to go in here. But loval color and all... 'nimi 'Salajo'


I tried to tokeponize this word: "salao", as found in the original text as: "But after forty days without a
fish the boy's parents had told him that the old man was now definitely
and finally
salao, which is the worst form of unlucky [...]"

janKipo wrote:"the tool is a round line and a fish distant shaft and a fish fighting tool and a cloth front" ?
"this cloth front is slight damaged and makes the shaft of the boat a circle."
"The sight of this cloth thinks aloud that it defeats this man"
I haven't checked the English, but a lot of this is pretty clear, though some is very obscure.


linja sike = the coiled lines [lit. round lines]
palisa weka kala = gaff (hook) [lit. a fish removing stick]
ilo utala kala = harpoon [lit. a fishing weapon tool]
sinpin len = sail [lit. a cloth wall]
palisa pi tomo tawa telo = mast

I think that wasn't my best choice. Maybe just saying linja, palisa utala lili [a small attacking stick], palisa utala suli [a big attacking stick] and sinpin len kon [an air cloth wall] would be better, anu seme?

sinpin len ni li pakala lili li sike e palisa pi tomo tawa telo = the sail was slightly damaged [OK] and it furled around the mast

Maybe it would be better if said li lon sike palisa suli pi tomo tawa telo?

lukin pi len ni li pilin toki e ni: tenpo ali la, ona li anpa e jan ni a... = the sight of this cloth seems to be saying that this man is always defeated

Maybe: lukin pi len ni li wile toki e ni: tenpo ali la, ijo li anpa e jan ni a...

----

So, to sum up:
jan li lon. tenpo pi mute mute la, ona li sike e suno. jan ni taso li kama jo e kala tan telo, lon tawa telo pi luka telo, kepeken tomo tawa telo lili. tenpo mun suli mute la, ona li kama jo ala e kala. tenpo open la – tu pi tenpo pini ni la – jan lili li lon poka pi jan suli ni. taso tenpo suli la ona tu li jo ala e kala. tan ni la, mama li toki e ni tawa jan lili: jan suli ni li pilin kin Salajo. nimi Salajo pi toki pi ma ona li wile toki e ni: tenpo mute la, ijo ike mute anu pona ala li kama tawa jan. jan lili li kute e wile mama la, li tawa tomo tawa telo ante. tenpo suno mute lili la, jan pi tomo tawa ni li kama jo e kala pona tu wan. jan lili li lukin e jan suli ni li pilin ike tan ni: tenpo suno ali la, jan suli li kama tawa tomo tan tomo tawa lili li jo ala e kala. tenpo ali la, jan lili li tawa jan suli li pali e ijo pona ni: ona li jo e ilo tan tomo tawa telo. ilo li linja li palisa utala lili li palisa utala suli li sinpin len kon. len ni li pakala lili li lon sike palisa suli pi tomo tawa telo. lukin pi len ni li wile toki e ni: tenpo ali la, ijo li anpa e jan ni a...

janKipo
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Re: jan suli mute en telo suli | The Old Man and the Sea

Postby janKipo » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:11 pm

janMapaja wrote:Thanks! sina pona mute :)

janKipo wrote:"on voyages of wet feet?


lon tawa telo pi luka telo = in the water current of the water arm (loosely meaning Gulf Stream)


ken la 'linja telo tawa' (or 'tawa telo') Not sure I would have gotten it even then but this is close to a river in the ocean
janKipo wrote:"at the beginning time, two of the last times" ? neither structure nor point too clear.


tenpo open la – tu pi tenpo pini ni la = at the beginning, (i.e.) half of that past time

In the original, the old man "had gone 84 days now without taking a fish". But "in the first
40 days
", that is, half of that time, "a boy had been with him". I thought I should try conveying such meaning without using numbers. Thus "tu pi tenpo pini ni la" for "40 days" and "tenpo mun suli mute la" (for several months) for "84 days". Do you reckon any other way to say this without resorting to figures?


Well, 'tu pi tenpo pini' does mean anything like "half that time" or much else that I can see:"in two of the now past" at best. 'tenp mun mute' is enough for everal months, no need for 'suli' which is about length, not number. tenpo mun mute la ona li kma ala jo e kala. wan napa wan pi tenpo ni la jan li li poka ona.'
janKipo wrote:"salajo' doesn't appear to be a proper name, so not fit to go in here. But local color and all... 'nimi 'Salajo'


I tried to tokeponize this word: "salao", as found in the original text as: "But after forty days without a
fish the boy's parents had told him that the old man was now definitely
and finally
salao, which is the worst form of unlucky [...]"

sounds like some extreme version of 'nasa'
janKipo wrote:"the tool is a round line and a fish distant shaft and a fish fighting tool and a cloth front" ?
"this cloth front is slightly damaged and makes the shaft of the boat a circle."
"The sight of this cloth thinks aloud that it defeats this man"
I haven't checked the English, but a lot of this is pretty clear, though some is very obscure.


linja sike = the coiled lines [lit. round lines]
palisa weka kala = gaff (hook) [lit. a fish removing stick]
ilo utala kala = harpoon [lit. a fishing weapon tool]
sinpin len = sail [lit. a cloth wall]
palisa pi tomo tawa telo = mast


That does clarify things but it is a bit hard to get out of the blue. maybe 'sike linja' (not sure), 'palisa pi weka kala' pretty surely, similarly, 'ilo pi utala kala' 'sinpin len' is ok but totally misses the point of a sail, to catch the wind and propel the boat. This sounds like a cabana. given "sail", mast is clear. But, as I say, I don't fish -- or sail.
I think that wasn't my best choice. Maybe just saying linja, palisa utala lili [a small attacking stick], palisa utala suli [a big attacking stick] and sinpin len kon [an air cloth wall] would be better, anu seme?

Yes those seem better, but after the expo, it is hard to say.
sinpin len ni li pakala lili li sike e palisa pi tomo tawa telo = the sail was slightly damaged [OK] and it furled around the mast

'sike' is one of tose words we're not sure about : Does the Wagon master circle the wagon or do the Indians?
Maybe it would be better if said li lon sike palisa suli pi tomo tawa telo?

lukin pi len ni li pilin toki e ni: tenpo ali la, ona li anpa e jan ni a... = the sight of this cloth seems to be saying that this man is always defeated

Maybe: lukin pi len ni li wile toki e ni: tenpo ali la, ijo li anpa e jan ni a...

Yes,
----

So, to sum up:
jan li lon. tenpo pi mute mute la, ona li sike e suno. jan ni taso li kama jo e kala tan telo, lon tawa telo pi luka telo, kepeken tomo tawa telo lili. tenpo mun suli mute la, ona li kama jo ala e kala. tenpo open la – tu pi tenpo pini ni la – jan lili li lon poka pi jan suli ni. taso tenpo suli la ona tu li jo ala e kala. tan ni la, mama li toki e ni tawa jan lili: jan suli ni li pilin kin Salajo. nimi Salajo pi toki pi ma ona li wile toki e ni: tenpo mute la, ijo ike mute anu pona ala li kama tawa jan. jan lili li kute e wile mama la, li tawa tomo tawa telo ante. tenpo suno mute lili la, jan pi tomo tawa ni li kama jo e kala pona tu wan. jan lili li lukin e jan suli ni li pilin ike tan ni: tenpo suno ali la, jan suli li kama tawa tomo tan tomo tawa lili li jo ala e kala. tenpo ali la, jan lili li tawa jan suli li pali e ijo pona ni: ona li jo e ilo tan tomo tawa telo. ilo li linja li palisa utala lili li palisa utala suli li sinpin len kon. len ni li pakala lili li lon sike palisa suli pi tomo tawa telo. lukin pi len ni li wile toki e ni: tenpo ali la, ijo li anpa e jan ni a...
[/quote]

janMapaja
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:05 pm

Re: jan suli mute en telo suli | The Old Man and the Sea

Postby janMapaja » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:36 am

jan Kipo o, pona mute! sina toki sona. mi pona e nimi ni tan toki sina:

jan li lon. tenpo pi mute mute la, ona li sike e suno. jan taso li kama jo e kala tan telo lon nasin telo [the water road] li lawa e tomo tawa telo lili. tenpo mun mute la, ona li kama jo e kala ala. tenpo nanpa wan la [at first (lit. at the first time)] jan lili li awen poka pi jan suli. taso tenpo suli la ona tu li jo ala e kala. tan ni la, mama li toki e ni tawa jan lili: jan suli ni li nasa mute li sama pilin "Salajo". nimi "Salajo" li wile toki e ni: tenpo mute la, ijo ike mute anu pona ala li kama tawa jan. jan lili li kute e wile mama la, li tawa tomo tawa telo ante. tenpo suno pi mute lili la, jan pi tomo tawa ni li kama jo e kala pona tu wan. jan lili li lukin e jan suli li pilin ike tan ni: tenpo suno ali la, jan suli li kama tawa tomo tan tomo tawa lili li jo ala e kala. tenpo ali la, jan lili li tawa jan suli li pana e pona ni [lit. give this good (deed)]: li jo e ilo tan tomo tawa telo. ilo li linja li palisa utala lili li palisa utala suli li len suli pi tawa pana kon [the great cloth of/for wind giving]. len suli ni li pakala lili li lon sike pi palisa suli pi tomo tawa telo. lukin pi len suli li wile toki e ni: tenpo ali la, ijo li anpa e jan ni a...


About my current choice for sail (len suli pi tawa pana kon), it comes from the idea that a sail gives wind to the vessel [li pana e kon tawa tomo tawa telo] so that it can move [tawa]. In this sense, we could also say the vessel receives the wind because of/from the sail: len suli pi tawa kama jo kon (the great cloth for wind-getting) or even len suli pi tawa jo kon (the great cloth for wind-containing). Ultimately, we could also call it the great cloth of/for water movement [len suli pi (tawa) tawa telo (?)].

sina sona e seme? nasin seme li pona mute tawa sina?


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