Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

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janWesaSila
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Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

Postby janWesaSila » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:20 am

toki! :)

As a way of practicing, I decided to translate a funny old book from my kids' shelf. I'm pretty new to this and I'm sure there are ambiguities, errors, and weird turns of phrase -- so if anyone wants to try reading it and tell me what could be improved, that would be wonderful!

I've divided it into sections just to make it easier to refer to specific parts.

bigguslittlegus.jpg


jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili
tan jan Li Lolen anu 'Lee Lorenz'



KIPISI NANPA WAN

tenpo pini la, jan pona tu li lon. ona li jan Kasa suli li jan Kasa lili. jan Kasa lili li jan wile li jo e pilin mute tawa ni: kama jo e mani mute. jan Kasa suli li suli taso.

tenpo suno wan la, jan Kasa lili li toki tawa jan pona ona pi ni: ona mute li wile tawa ma li kama jo e mani.

ona mute li tawa lili la, li lukin e tomo pakala lili. jan Kasa lili li toki e, 'mi mute o awen lon ni. mi wile lape.'

jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'pona.' ona li wile ala lape, telo, jan Kasa lili li toki e ali la, jan Kasa suli li wan.

jan Kasa lili li lukin e tomo insa. ona li toki e, 'ni li pona mute. mi ken pali lon ni e nasin mi. sina ken tawa li pali li kama jo e mani lili.'

jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'sina toki e ni la.'

'sina kama jo e mani la, o pana e ona lon insa len pi noka anpa tawa ni: sina weka ala e ona.'

jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'mi pilin weka ala.'



KIPISI NANPA TU

tenpo suno kama li tenpo suno nanpa wan. jan Kasa suli li tawa ma moku li kama jo e pali pi ni: li alasa e kili. pali li pini la, jan pi ma moku li pana tawa jan Kasa suli e mani ala, taso ni: mute pi kili loje pona.

jan Kasa suli li awen pilin e toki pi jan Kasa lili. ona li pana e kili lon insa len pi noka anpa. pana pi noka anpa li ike, taso li ken. jan Kasa suli li open tawa tomo.

jan Kasa suli li tawa wawa ala, taso ona li kama tomo la, len ona pi noka anpa li jo e mute pi ko kili.

jan Kasa lili li toki e, 'a, mi mute li ken ala moku e ni. tenpo suno ni ali la, mi pali wawa. taso nasa sina kama ni: mi mute li jo e ala tawa moku taso pan tan tomo. tenpo kama la, o pana e ijo mani lon poki len sina.'

jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'mi pana.' ona li len tawa lape.



KIPISI NANPA TU WAN

tenpo suno sin nanpa tu la, jan Kasa suli li kama jo e pali pi ni: li kama jo e telo mama tan soweli. tenpo suno pini la, jan pi ma moku li pana tawa ona e poki suli pi telo mama.

jan Kasa suli li awen pilin e toki pi jan Kasa lili. ona li open e poki len li pana e telo mama lon insa.

jan Kasa suli tawa wawa tomo, taso, li kama e tomo la, telo mama ali li weka.

jan Kasa lili li toki e, 'o lukin e sina! sina sona ala sona e ni: li ken ala jo e telo mama lon poki len sina! sina wile jo tawa e poki pi telo mama lon lawa sewi sina.'

jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'mi pakala. tenpo kama la, mi wile kin ni.'



KIPISI NANPA TU TU

tenpo suno sin nanpa tu wan la, jan Kasa suli li tawa ma tomo li kama jo e pali lon tomo pan. tenpo suno sin ali la, ona li pali lon ilo seli li pali e moku pan suwi pona.

ona li pilin e, 'jan Kasa lili li kama jo e mute lili ni la, li kama pilin pona.'

taso, tenpo mani la, ali pi pan suwi lon tomo pan e awen. kama ni, jan pi tomo pan li tawa poki moku suli li lukin e sike moku pi mama telo kiwen. ona li mani e ni tawa jan Kasa suli.

toki pi jan Kasa lili tan ni: jan Kasa suli li pana e sike moku lon lawa ona. taso, suno li awen lon sewi kin. ona li tawa la, sike moku li open kama e ko seli.

jan Kasa lili li toki e, 'sike moku pona! sina pakala e ona! sina ken ala jo tawa e sike moku lon lawa sina. sina wile tawa sike e ona lon anpa tawa tomo.'

jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'mi pakala. tenpo kama la, mi wile kin ni.'

tempo sin la, ona mute li tawa supa lape li jo moku e pan lili taso.



KIPISI NANPA LUKA

tenpo suno tu tu ali la, jan Kasa suli li pali tawa jan pi soweli moku. jan li mani tawa ona e noka soweli pona pi kon seli.

jan Kasa suli li pilin e, 'tenpo ni la, mi pali pona.' ona li tawa sike e noka soweli lon anpa tawa tomo.

jan Kasa suli li kama e tomo la, jan Kasa lili li anpa monsi lon lupa tomo li pali e sitelen toki. jan Kasa suli li lukin tawa ona e noka soweli. taso, tenpo ni la, noka soweli li taso palisa sijelo jaki suli.

jan Kasa lili toki e, 'sina lawa nasa kin ken seme?' ona li tu e pan pini. 'tawa sike e noka soweli lon ko anpa! sina wile jo tawa e ona lon sewi luka sina.'

jan Kasa suli toki e, 'tenpo suno kama la, mi wile pakala ala.'



KIPISI NANPA LUKA WAN

tenpo suno kama li tenpo suno tu tu wan. tenpo ni la, jan Kasa suli wile kin pali pona. jan pi kiwen pali li esun e pali tan ona. tenpo suno ali la, jan Kasa suli li pali wawa li pana e kiwen lon anpa pi noka soweli. jan pi kiwen pali li pana tawa ona e soweli pali pona kin tan mani.

jan Kasa suli li pilin e, 'jan Kasa lili li toki e "o jo tawa e ona lon lewi luka sina."' ona li pana kon suli, li pali sewi e soweli pali tawa sewi luka ona, li tawa tomo.



KIPISI NANPA LUKA TU

tenpo ni la, nasin tomo la, jan Kasa suli li tawa poka tomo pi mije pi mani mute. jan ni li mama tawa meli pi toki ala. jan pi pona sijelo li toki e ni: meli li toki ala tawa ni: jan li kama tawa meli e kon musi.

meli li tawa lon ma kasi poka mama ona la, jan Kasa suli li kama pi tawa nasa li jo e sijelo pali lon monsi ona. meli li lukin e ona la, meli li open wawa e kon musi. ona li kon musi wawa kin tawa ni: telo oko li anpa lon sinpin lawa ona.

ona li toki e, 'a, mama! jan musi kin! o toki tawa ona tawa ni: o awen poka mi mute tan ni: tenpo ali la, mi ken kon musi.'

mije pi mani mute li pilin pona mute tan kute e toki meli. ona toki e, 'pona sewi li lon!', li tawa wawa jan Kasa suli. 'jan mije o! sina pana e kon musi tawa mi mute, li kama meli mi tawa toki. sina wile kama li awen poka mi mute?'

jan Kasa suli toki e, 'ni li pona mute, taso, mi wile toki tawa jan pona mi. tenpo ni la, ona li awen tawa mi en soweli pali mi.'

mije li wile awen ala, li toki e, 'jan pona sina li ken awen poka mi mute kin. o tawa wawa li toki tawa ona.'



KIPISI NANPA LUKA TU WAN

jan Kasa suli li tawa kepeken wawa ali pi ken jan pi soweli lon monsi ona. tenpo lawa pi jan Kasa lili li ken toki e nimi la, jan Kasa suli toki tawa ona e ijo mije pi mani mute e ijo meli.

'ona li wile e ni: sina kama awen poka lon ni kin. mi mute li wile seme?'

jan Kasa lili toki e, 'aaa. ken la, ona li ken kepeken e jan pi sama mi tawa ni: nasin e ijo ona e pali ona.'

kama la, ona li sewi wawa tan supa len li tawa tomo mije pi mani mute. ona li tawa wawa kin tawa ni: jan Kasa suli li ken ike tawa wawa sama.

tenpo suno kama la, ona mute li kama awen. tenpo la, jan Kasa suli en meli pi mama mani li kama pilin pona kin li wan.

kama la, sike suno mute la, jan Kasa lili li pali awen e nasin ona la, ona mute li pilin pona li lon sama -- mije pi mani mute, en jan Kasa lili, en jan Kasa suli, en meli pi jan Kasa suli, en kama ni: jan Kasa lili sin.



~ PINI ~

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jan Pinsen
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Re: Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

Postby jan Pinsen » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:50 pm

toki!

I'm rather new at Toki Pona myself, but I'll give it a go.

janWesaSila wrote:KIPISI NANPA WAN

Interesting use of "kipisi". Looking for "part" in the classic word list, I found it as a use of "wan" as a noun. So, alternatively, you could make it "wan nanpa wan" and "wan nanpa tu" etc.

janWesaSila wrote:tenpo pini la, jan pona tu li lon.

If this was "once upon a time" in the original, you might want to consider "tenpo ijo la". I saw it in a Memrise course.

janWesaSila wrote:ona li jan Kasa suli li jan Kasa lili.

Well, when you repeat "li" like this it's like conjugating two verb phrases, or some such. It's kind of like you're saying "They are big Gus and they are little Gus". Therefore, I think in this case, you would actually want to use "en" rather than the second "li".

janWesaSila wrote:jan Kasa lili li jan wile li jo e pilin mute tawa ni: kama jo e mani mute.

So this would be something like, "Little Gus is a greedy person and he has many thoughts about getting lots of money"? Took me a while, but it seems alright, I think... I typically see "ni:" followed by a full proposition rather than just a verb phrase like here, but I don't know if it's really wrong like this.

janWesaSila wrote:tenpo suno wan la, jan Kasa lili li toki tawa jan pona ona pi ni: ona mute li wile tawa ma li kama jo e mani.

I'm not sure, but I think "e" might be better here than "pi". So, he's saying he and is friend should go to a land/place and get money? Just "ma"? Also, "ona" can be plural in itself ("they"); it might be fine to use it with "mute" so as to prevent ambiguity, but it's something to keep in mind.

janWesaSila wrote:ona mute li tawa lili la, li lukin e tomo pakala lili.

I think you need to give the second half of this sentence a subject too (in this case, by just repeating "ona (mute)").

janWesaSila wrote:jan Kasa lili li toki e, 'mi mute o awen lon ni. mi wile lape.'

I would be inclined to say "li toki e ni: [...]", but more experienced speakers here will have a better idea of whether it's necessary, or preferred to, equal to, or even worse than how you said it.

janWesaSila wrote:ona li wile ala lape, telo, jan Kasa lili li toki e ali la, jan Kasa suli li wan.

Sorry, I wasn't able to figure this one out. Could you give me the original of this bit?

janWesaSila wrote:mi ken pali lon ni e nasin mi.

Not sure if it's wrong per se, but I would be inclined to put "lon ni" at the end, here (or at the start followed by "la").

janWesaSila wrote:jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'sina toki e ni la.'

That is a fun way of expressing that. It might, however, be a bit too anglocentric; remember that "la" isn't exactly "if" even though it can be translated that way in a certain context. It being a separator, I think it's always supposed to separate an adverb or phrase of context from the rest of the sentence. I guess you could say it as "sina toki e ni la, mi (mute) pali e ni", although the feeling of the original would I suppose be lost a bit. (Just to be clear, it was "If you say so", right?)

janWesaSila wrote:'sina kama jo e mani la, o pana e ona lon insa len pi noka anpa tawa ni: sina weka ala e ona.'

"len pi noka anpa" = sock/shoe? Pretty nice. So little Gus is worried big Gus will get rid of the money? I guess the context here would be, by spending it? Or maybe not, as he could still do that if it's in his sock/shoe. Hmm...

janWesaSila wrote:jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'mi pilin weka ala.'

I don't quite understand "mi pilin weka ala". Is "pilin" used as a modal verb, here?

*~*~*~*~*

I'll keep it at that for now, as it's quite a lot of work (at least for me, still). As you can probably tell, I'm not that good at the language yet, so this might not be very helpful for you, but hopefully it's better than nothing. At any rate, this seems like a good job to me, so far; I understood almost all of it. Keep it up!

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Re: Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

Postby janWesaSila » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:04 pm

Yay! Thanks for the input!

jan Pinsen wrote:
janWesaSila wrote:tenpo pini la, jan pona tu li lon.

If this was "once upon a time" in the original, you might want to consider "tenpo ijo la". I saw it in a Memrise course.

Good to know! It was "long ago," but I was wondering about that. :)

jan Pinsen wrote:
janWesaSila wrote:ona li jan Kasa suli li jan Kasa lili.

Well, when you repeat "li" like this it's like conjugating two verb phrases, or some such. It's kind of like you're saying "They are big Gus and they are little Gus". Therefore, I think in this case, you would actually want to use "en" rather than the second "li".

Ohh, I didn't realize I could use 'en' in places other than the subject. Interesting!

jan Pinsen wrote:
janWesaSila wrote:jan Kasa lili li jan wile li jo e pilin mute tawa ni: kama jo e mani mute.

So this would be something like, "Little Gus is a greedy person and he has many thoughts about getting lots of money"? Took me a while, but it seems alright, I think... I typically see "ni:" followed by a full proposition rather than just a verb phrase like here, but I don't know if it's really wrong like this.

It was "Little Gus was a dreamer and full of schemes for getting rich." Actually, I might replace 'pilin' with 'nasin' now, but I don't have any better ideas for 'dreamer'. :)

jan Pinsen wrote:
janWesaSila wrote:tenpo suno wan la, jan Kasa lili li toki tawa jan pona ona pi ni: ona mute li wile tawa ma li kama jo e mani.

I'm not sure, but I think "e" might be better here than "pi". So, he's saying he and is friend should go to a land/place and get money? Just "ma"? Also, "ona" can be plural in itself ("they"); it might be fine to use it with "mute" so as to prevent ambiguity, but it's something to keep in mind.

"One day, Little Gus persuaded his friend to set out with him to seek their fortunes." I was going for "travel the land" or something; there's probably a better way to say it. I went back and forth about 'ona mute', and decided that without it, it might look like only one of them was going.

jan Pinsen wrote:
janWesaSila wrote:ona li wile ala lape, telo, jan Kasa lili li toki e ali la, jan Kasa suli li wan.

Sorry, I wasn't able to figure this one out. Could you give me the original of this bit?

Sure, it was a weird one. "He wasn't tired, but he always agreed with whatever Little Gus said."

jan Pinsen wrote:
janWesaSila wrote:jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'sina toki e ni la.'

That is a fun way of expressing that. It might, however, be a bit too anglocentric; remember that "la" isn't exactly "if" even though it can be translated that way in a certain context. It being a separator, I think it's always supposed to separate an adverb or phrase of context from the rest of the sentence. I guess you could say it as "sina toki e ni la, mi (mute) pali e ni", although the feeling of the original would I suppose be lost a bit. (Just to be clear, it was "If you say so", right?)

Yes, it was. :) Maybe an ellipsis would help? I didn't know 'pali' could just be a general 'do'. That opens up a lot of possibilities, if so.

jan Pinsen wrote:
janWesaSila wrote:'sina kama jo e mani la, o pana e ona lon insa len pi noka anpa tawa ni: sina weka ala e ona.'

"len pi noka anpa" = sock/shoe? Pretty nice. So little Gus is worried big Gus will get rid of the money? I guess the context here would be, by spending it? Or maybe not, as he could still do that if it's in his sock/shoe. Hmm...

It was "put your wages in your boot, so you won't lose them." I wonder if there's a better way to connote that he's only afraid they'll be misplaced, not gotten rid of on purpose..?

jan Pinsen wrote:
janWesaSila wrote:jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'mi pilin weka ala.'

I don't quite understand "mi pilin weka ala". Is "pilin" used as a modal verb, here?

He's saying "I won't forget." I guess I should have put "mi weka ala e pilin." :)

Thank you again for the comments! It's awesome to get some feedback!

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Re: Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

Postby janKipo » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:34 pm

This is very nice. It avoids a lot of traps and takes care of some others very elegantly. It also raises a bunch of questions that we have missed dealing with only a few sentences at a time.

<<jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili
tan jan Li Lolen anu 'Lee Lorenz'>>

Probably “foreign quotes: “Lee Lorenz”

<<KIPISI NANPA WAN

tenpo pini la, jan pona tu li lon. ona li jan Kasa suli li jan Kasa lili. jan Kasa lili li jan wile li jo e pilin mute tawa ni: kama jo e mani mute. jan Kasa suli li suli taso.>>

Probably not 'li' but 'en', since it doesn't divide into two sentences. Or say 'wan (ona) li jan … ante (ona) li …' (or
maybe 'ona wan'. Maybe just 'pilin mute e ni”' but need a full sentence after that 'ona li kama …' Also probably
“thought about” so 'pilin e ijo ni:'

<<tenpo suno wan la, jan Kasa lili li toki tawa jan pona ona pi ni: ona mute li wile tawa ma li kama jo e mani.>>

Prepositional phrases go at the end, so 'toki e ni tawa jan pona'. No three of them, so just 'ona tu', if you need to mark plurality (which you don't).
The next bit is a puzzled, since I think 'kama jo' is meant to be under 'wile'. Three solutions: easy 1) insert 'wile' after second 'li'; more complex 2)
change second 'li' to 'tawa ni: ona …'; innovation 3) figure out a rule for two verb phrases attaching to a single modal. I think this is just use 'en in
place of 'li'. This still allows for ambiguities, but is less misleading that 'li', which indicates a new main verb. I think 2 is the best solution.

<<ona mute li tawa lili la, li lukin e tomo pakala lili. jan Kasa lili li toki e, 'mi mute o awen lon ni. mi wile lape.'>>

'la ona li' (need full sentence)(commas are optional, by the way) Strictly need 'nimi' (or some such) before the quote (which is a name), but practice
has already dropped it. 'mi tu', but don't even need the 'tu' (though the contrast occurs immediately)

<<jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'pona.' ona li wile ala lape, telo, jan Kasa lili li toki e ali la, jan Kasa suli li wan.>>

'taso' for 'telo'. Prob stop at 'toki'; I'm not sure 'ali' works as “anything” (English is weird), so skip or
maybe use 'nimi' or 'toki'. 'wan' is nice for “agree”, 'pilin sama' misses the point.

<<jan Kasa lili li lukin e tomo insa. ona li toki e, 'ni li pona mute. mi ken pali lon ni e nasin mi. sina ken tawa li pali li kama jo e mani lili.'>>

'insa tomo' 'lon ni' goes at the end. 'nasin' = “plan, scheme”? Nice. I suspect those “and”s are purposive “go
to work to get money”

<<jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'sina toki e ni la.'>>

This feels untpish, but I don't know what to do for it.

'<<sina kama jo e mani la, o pana e ona lon insa len pi noka anpa tawa ni: sina weka ala e ona.'>>

'lon insa pi len noka' ('anpa' is redundant) could even make this the main verb in place of 'pana'.

<<jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'mi pilin weka ala.'>>

“I don't feel distant” doesn't fit. “I won't lose/get rid of it”? 'mi weka ala e ona'. Maybe “I won't forget” 'mi
weka ala e pilin/toki ni'

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Re: Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

Postby janKipo » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:06 pm

KIPISI NANPA TU

tenpo suno kama li tenpo suno nanpa wan. jan Kasa suli li tawa ma moku li kama jo e pali pi ni: li alasa e kili. pali li pini la, jan pi ma moku li pana tawa jan Kasa suli e mani ala, taso ni: mute pi kili loje pona.

'ma moku' sounds more like a picnic grounds than a farm, maybe 'ma pi suli moku' or such. No 'pi' (just one word after). Need full sentence 'ona li alasa'. Prep phrases at end, after DO. Prob just 'taso e kili', though I worry about sticking 'taso' in. Two sentences are safer 'kili loje pona mute' is clearer.

jan Kasa suli li awen pilin e toki pi jan Kasa lili. ona li pana e kili lon insa len pi noka anpa. pana pi noka anpa li ike, taso li ken. jan Kasa suli li open tawa tomo.

"think about x" is 'pilin e ijo (pi) x', "remember" is maybe 'awen e x lon pilin'. 'lon insa pi len noka' ('insa' is the head of the complement, not part of the preposition). Prob 'jaki' is better than just 'ike' here (disgusting). 'ken' seems weak.

jan Kasa suli li tawa wawa ala, taso ona li kama tomo la, len ona pi noka anpa li jo e mute pi ko kili.

Maybe 'ko kili mute' is enough, though you may be making some other point than that there was a lot of it.

jan Kasa lili li toki e, 'a, mi mute li ken ala moku e ni. tenpo suno ni ali la, mi pali wawa. taso nasa sina kama ni: mi mute li jo e ala tawa moku taso pan tan tomo. tenpo kama la, o pana e ijo mani lon poki len sina.'

'nasa sina li kama e ni:' 'mi tu' (here just 'mi' would be misleading) Prob 'jo ala e moku' or 'jo e moku ala' is enough ("nothing to eat" would be 'ala pi tawa ni: mi mute li moku e ni' or some such). I think "except ..." takes 'taso' as a preposition attaching to 'ala' in this case, so 'moku ala pi taso pan pi tan tomo'

jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'mi pana.' ona li len tawa lape.

English habit would give 'mi pali e ni', but this may be more tpish.

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Re: Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

Postby janKipo » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:37 pm

KIPISI NANPA TU WAN

tenpo suno sin nanpa tu la, jan Kasa suli li kama jo e pali pi ni: li kama jo e telo mama tan soweli. tenpo suno pini la, jan pi ma moku li pana tawa ona e poki suli pi telo mama.

no 'pi' (only one word) so 'pali ni:' or even 'li pali e ni:' without the 'kama jo' (though 'kama pali' makes sense, too). 'ona li kama' Strictly speaking these critters are mani (domesticated ungulates), but that would be confusing in this context. 'tenpo suo pini la' means "yesterday", too. 'tenpo suno ni pini la' is safer or 'pini pi tenpo suno la' . Prep phrase to the end, after the DO.

jan Kasa suli li awen pilin e toki pi jan Kasa lili. ona li open e poki len li pana e telo mama lon insa.

"kept thinking about"? 'pilin e ijo pi' Probably 'tawa insa' (he is not inside pouring)

jan Kasa suli tawa wawa tomo, taso, li kama e tomo la, telo mama ali li weka.

'tawa ... tomo. taso ona li kama ...'

jan Kasa lili li toki e, 'o lukin e sina! sina sona ala sona e ni: li ken ala jo e telo mama lon poki len sina! sina wile jo tawa e poki pi telo mama lon lawa sewi sina.'

'... ni: sina ken...' 'jo tawa' is nice though 'jo' alone means "carry" too. 'lon sewi pi lawa sina' "on top of your head" 'lon lawa sina' is probably enough.

jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'mi pakala. tenpo kama la, mi wile kin ni.'

'wile kin e ni' 'wile' seems wrong here: "want to" is too weak, even with 'kin' (maybe especially with it) "must" is too strong. We just have his commitment to it. Again, 'pali', maybe with 'kin', seems about right.

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Re: Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

Postby janKipo » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:08 pm

KIPISI NANPA TU TU

tenpo suno sin nanpa tu wan la, jan Kasa suli li tawa ma tomo li kama jo e pali lon tomo pan. tenpo suno sin ali la, ona li pali lon ilo seli li pali e moku pan suwi pona.

ona li pilin e, 'jan Kasa lili li kama jo e mute lili ni la, li kama pilin pona.'

'...la ona li kama...' In general, subject of a 'la' clause or a sentence that leads up to 'ni:' does not carry over to the next sentnece, but has to be stated explicitly. subjects are only dropped for 'li ... li ...' conjunctions.

taso, tenpo mani la, ali pi pan suwi lon tomo pan e awen. kama ni, jan pi tomo pan li tawa poki moku suli li lukin e sike moku pi mama telo kiwen. ona li mani e ni tawa jan Kasa suli.

'tenpo mani' for "pay time" is nice. 'pan suwi pi lon tomo pan' The sense here (for me, who may be off on my own story) is that the cake was all gone, not that it all remained in the shop, as you seem to have it. In short, I expected 'weka', not 'awen'. 'ni pini' "after that'? or maybe "in this event" as you have it. But this looks a lot like 'ni kama' "before that". 'tan ni' might be safest. Probably don't need the 'moku' in the cheese description. 'mani' as a verb is not well-worked out. It could mean "make DO to be money" as you have it, or it could mean "apply money to DO", so that this would be 'mani e jan Kasa kepeken ona'. Yours seems the better choice here. but 'ona' rather than 'ni', since the reference is not external or to a sentence but to an earlier NP.

toki pi jan Kasa lili tan ni: jan Kasa suli li pana e sike moku lon lawa ona. taso, suno li awen lon sewi kin. ona li tawa la, sike moku li open kama e ko seli.

Something missing at the beginning here. It seems likely to mean 'jan Kasa suli li pilin e ijo pi toki pi jan Kasa lili. tan ni la ona li pana...' not sure why 'kin'. 'kama ko seli' 'kama' is a modal and so joins directly with the following (in this case intransitive) verb.

jan Kasa lili li toki e, 'sike moku pona! sina pakala e ona! sina ken ala jo tawa e sike moku lon lawa sina. sina wile tawa sike e ona lon anpa tawa tomo.'

'lon anpa pi tomo tawa' I think.

jan Kasa suli li toki e, 'mi pakala. tenpo kama la, mi wile kin ni.'

As before

tempo sin la, ona mute li tawa supa lape li jo moku e pan lili taso.

'ona tu' either 'moku e pan' or 'jo e pan lili taso tawa moku'

janKipo
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Re: Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

Postby janKipo » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:06 pm

KIPISI NANPA LUKA

tenpo suno tu tu ali la, jan Kasa suli li pali tawa jan pi soweli moku. jan li mani tawa ona e noka soweli pona pi kon seli.

Prep phrase at end after DO.

jan Kasa suli li pilin e, 'tenpo ni la, mi pali pona.' ona li tawa sike e noka soweli lon anpa tawa tomo.

lon anpa pi tomo tawa Oh, wait, I just saw this another way "roll on the ground to home" Disregard earlier notes about this whole line. But I would have used 'ma' rather than 'anpa'

jan Kasa suli li kama e tomo la, jan Kasa lili li anpa monsi lon lupa tomo li pali e sitelen toki. jan Kasa suli li lukin tawa ona e noka soweli. taso, tenpo ni la, noka soweli li taso palisa sijelo jaki suli.

I suppose 'anpa e monsi', "sit". PP to end, after DO. (I now do not understand 'lukin e X tawa Y' "show X to Y" but it is established usage). I think the 'taso' has to go to the end or somewhere in the middle, wherever the "merely" has the most force. That is, it modifies what goes before.

jan Kasa lili toki e, 'sina lawa nasa kin ken seme?' ona li tu e pan pini. 'tawa sike e noka soweli lon ko anpa! sina wile jo tawa e ona lon sewi luka sina.'

'lawa nasa kin sina li ken seme' Prob 'pan awen', the bread still around, not the stuff finished. Here is where I caught on, the shift to 'ko anpa' "dust". 'lon sewi pi luka sina'.

jan Kasa suli toki e, 'tenpo suno kama la, mi wile pakala ala.'

Prob don't want 'wile', which is not English 'will'
Last edited by janKipo on Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

janKipo
Posts: 2797
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

Postby janKipo » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:34 pm

KIPISI NANPA LUKA WAN

tenpo suno kama li tenpo suno tu tu wan. tenpo ni la, jan Kasa suli wile kin pali pona. jan pi kiwen pali li esun e pali tan ona. tenpo suno ali la, jan Kasa suli li pali wawa li pana e kiwen lon anpa pi noka soweli. jan pi kiwen pali li pana tawa ona e soweli pali pona kin tan mani.

Prob 'pali kiwen', cf. 'lawa soweli' and the like. 'esun' is very mixed up: it means 'barter' and so how it translates to money exchanges is unclear, but at best it is something like 'x li esun e [what X brings] tawa Y tawa [what Y brings]' or 'X l esun e [what Y brings] tan Y kepeken [what X brings]' or some combination. This seems to be the latter case, but is not yet decisively the way it will go. 'pana ... lon ...' prob 'tawa' since he is not on the hooves sending things but sending them to the hooves. But pana' seems odd here. I would go with 'li lon anpa pi noka soweli e kiwen' "placed iron on animal hooves". PP after DO. 'tan' "in place of" doesn't feel right and I can't find any usage at the moment, though I am inclined to think it involves 'lon' somehow.
jan Kasa suli li pilin e, 'jan Kasa lili li toki e "o jo tawa e ona lon lewi luka sina."' ona li pana kon suli, li pali sewi e soweli pali tawa sewi luka ona, li tawa tomo.

'lon sewi pi luka sina' (prob don't need 'sewi pi') 'pana e kon suli' 'lon (sewi pi) luka ona'

janKipo
Posts: 2797
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Big Gus and Little Gus / jan Kasa suli en jan Kasa lili

Postby janKipo » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:58 pm

KIPISI NANPA LUKA TU

tenpo ni la, nasin tomo la, jan Kasa suli li tawa poka tomo pi mije pi mani mute. jan ni li mama tawa meli pi toki ala. jan pi pona sijelo li toki e ni: meli li toki ala tawa ni: jan li kama tawa meli e kon musi.

'poka pi tomo pi...' 'mama pi meli...' 'tawa' usually means purpose, but here you seem to want "until" rather than "so that". maybe 'lon ni kama:' could use 'ona' in place of last 'meli'.

meli li tawa lon ma kasi poka mama ona la, jan Kasa suli li kama pi tawa nasa li jo e sijelo pali lon monsi ona. meli li lukin e ona la, meli li open wawa e kon musi. ona li kon musi wawa kin tawa ni: telo oko li anpa lon sinpin lawa ona.

?'soweli' for 'sijelo'? How did it end up on his back from his arms? Or have I missed a part? or just 'open kon musi wawa' I guess this works for "so much that", but it seems weak.

ona li toki e, 'a, mama! jan musi kin! o toki tawa ona tawa ni: o awen poka mi mute tan ni: tenpo ali la, mi ken kon musi.'

Prob 'tawa ni' (forward looking) rather than 'tan' (backward)

mije pi mani mute li pilin pona mute tan kute e toki meli. ona toki e, 'pona sewi li lon!', li tawa wawa jan Kasa suli. 'jan mije o! sina pana e kon musi tawa mi mute, li kama meli mi tawa toki. sina wile kama li awen poka mi mute?'

'ona li toki e' kama toki e meli mi'

jan Kasa suli toki e, 'ni li pona mute, taso, mi wile toki tawa jan pona mi. tenpo ni la, ona li awen tawa mi en soweli pali mi.'

'awen e mi e soweli ...'

mije li wile awen ala, li toki e, 'jan pona sina li ken awen poka mi mute kin. o tawa wawa li toki tawa ona.'

'jan pona sina kin li ...mute.'


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