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Green Eggs and Ham

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:00 pm
by janKipo
tenpo pini suli la mi weka e kulupu lipu pi meli lili mi. tan ni la mi jo ala e toki ni pi toki Inli. tan ni la mi sona ala e nimi lili , taso ...

Translation by Dominick DeMercurio II
mi jan San.
jan San li mi.

ni pi nimi 'jan San li mi'...
ni pi nimi 'jan San li mi'...
ni pi nimi 'jan San li mi' li pona ala tawa mi. ala!

“This of the expression 'Sam I am'” isn't clear at all and I don't remember how it goes in the original (my memory goes directly from the second line to the one after this). Maybe 'nimi ni 'jan Sanli mi'' or with the 'ni' at the end, or better yet converting it all into a name, say, 'Samajan'

moku waso lili en moku soweli laso li pona ala pona tawa sina?

I remember this as “(green eggs) and ham” rather than “green (eggs and ham)” or (as this can also be read) “eggs and green ham” The amphiboly aside, “egg” is usually 'sike mama' and “ham” 'monsi (pi) soweli (suwi)' (four choices). The 'moku' is implicit in the context and ca be dropped for any aesthetic purpose without damage. Probably 'moku pi waso lili' is meant but either is inappropriate with the picture which I remember as showing fried eggs on a plate.

jan pi nimi 'jan San li mi' o, ona li pona ala tawa mi.

'tawa sina'?

moku waso lili en moku soweli laso li pona ala tawa mi.

ma ni anu ma ni ala la ona li pona ala pona tawa sina?

Since 'ma ni' means both “here” (usually) and “there”, this is one solution. Another is 'ma poka anu ma weka' “Do you like them near or far/ I do not like them anywhar” Note that 'anu' already makes this a (slightly different) question. The 'la' phrase saves the answer from ambiguity.

ma ni anu ma ni ala la ona li pona ala tawa mi.
ma ali la ona li pona ala tawa mi.
jan pi nimi 'jan San li mi' o, ona li pona ala tawa mi.
moku waso lili en moku soweli laso li pona ala tawa mi.

ona li lon insa tomo la ona li pona ala pona tawa sina?
ona li lon poka soweli lili walo la ona li pona ala pona tawa sina?


These 'la' sentences can be reduced to at least just the the 'lon' phrase and sometimes to just what follows it – for aesthetics. Or the lon phrase can be moved to the end 'ona li pona tawa sina lon insa tomo'. The logic of this tale requires that this soweli is a mouse, but I assume the original is just “with a mouse” not “beside a mouse”, so just 'poka', not 'lon poka'.('soweli walo lili' seems more natural)

ona li lon insa tomo: ni li pona ala tawa mi.
ona li lon poka soweli lili walo: ni li pona ala tawa mi.
ona li lon e ma ni anu ma ni ala: ni li pona ala tawa mi.
ona li lon e ma ali: ni li pona ala tawa mi.

'ona' in place of 'ni' throughout, since it is the green eggs and ham, not their being in a house or here or there or with a mouse that I don't like (those are just where I don't like 'em). (anaphoric pronoun, not deictic.)

moku waso lili en moku soweli laso li pona ala tawa mi.
jan pi nimi 'jan San li mi' o, ona li pona ala tawa mi.

ona li lon insa poki la sina moku ala moku e ona?
ona li lon kepeken soweli lili loje la sina moku ala moku e ona?

Wrong “with”; this is just 'poka' again, unless you are using the fox as a fork. And no 'lon'.

insa poki la ala!
poka soweli lili loje la ala!
insa tomo la ala!
poka soweli lili walo la ala!
ma ni anu ma ni ala la mi moku ala e ona.
ma ali la mi moku ala e ona.
ali la mi moku ala e moku waso lili e moku soweli laso.
jan pi nimi 'jan San li mi' o, ona li pona ala tawa mi.

Totally on track.

wile ala wile sina?! ken ala ken sina?! insa ala insa tomo tawa?!

Seems natural but tp don't 'low the shifted subject (though you might drop the 'sina' altogether).

o moku e ona. o moku e ona. ma ni la ona li lon.

insa tomo tawa la mi wile ala li ken ala.

ken la ona li pona tawa sina. tenpo kama la sina sona.
ona li lon insa kasi: ken la ni li pona tawa sina. A!


Probably 'ona' rather than 'ni', but it might be that ge&h ia fruit was OK, even though I don't like them ordinarily and won't eat them even in this combo.

insa kasi la mi wile ala li ken ala.
insa ala tomo tawa! sina o tu e sina en mi.

“Outside a car, may you divide you and me” Not sure what this is meant to be. 'insa ala x' seems to be 'insa x la ala!' or some such.

ona li lon insa poki: ni li pona ala tawa mi.
ona li lon poka soweli lili loje: ni li pona ala tawa mi.
ona li lon insa tomo: ni li pona ala tawa mi.
ona li lon poka soweli lili walo: ni li pona ala tawa mi.
ona li lon e ma ni anu ma ni ala: ni li pona ala tawa mi.
ona li lon e ma ali: ni li pona ala tawa mi.


Generally, I think the sentence – 'ni' construction is wrong here and just the 'la' phrase and 'ona' is meant (see above). No 'e' with 'lon' (and prepositions generally).

moku waso lili en moku soweli laso li pona ala tawa mi.
jan pi nimi 'jan San li mi' o, ona li pona ala tawa mi.

tomo tawa awen! tomo tawa awen!
tomo tawa awen! tomo tawa awen!
insa tomo tawa awen la sina ken ala ken li wile ala wile?


'insa pi tomo tawa awen' “continuing car”? “perpetual car”? “train”? (but how?)

insa ala tomo tawa awen! insa ala kasi!

See above on 'insa ala' ; maybe 'ala insa...'?

insa ala tomo tawa! jan San o tu e sina en mi. ike!
insa poki la mi wile ala li ken ala.
poka soweli lili loje la mi ken ala li wile ala.
tenpo kama ala la mi moku e ona poka soweli lili walo.
tenpo kama ala la mi moku e ona insa tomo.
tenpo kama ala la mi moku e ona lon ma ni anu ma ni ala.
tenpo kama ala la mi moku e ona lon ma ali.


These last couple introduce the same ambiguities as the English, depending on whether the 'anu' or the 'ali' falls withon the scope of the 'ala'. Since this format seems to force that they do, the resulting claims are not what is wanted.

moku waso lili en moku soweli laso li pona ala tawa mi.
jan pi nimi 'jan San li mi' o, ona li pona ala tawa mi.

toki! insa ala insa pimeja?!
ma ni insa pimeja!

'ma ni pi lon insa pimeja'?

insa pimeja la sina wile ala wile li ken ala ken?

insa pimeja la mi wile ala li ken ala.

insa telo sewi la sina wile ala wile li ken ala ken?


'insa pi telo sewi'

insa telo sewi la mi wile ala li ken ala.
insa ala pimeja! insa ala tomo tawa awen!
insa ala tomo tawa! insa ala kasi!
jan San o sina lukin e ni: ona li pona ala tawa mi.
insa ala tomo! insa ala poki!
poka ala soweli lili walo! poka ala soweli lili loje!
tenpo kama ala la mi moku e ona lon ma ni anu ma ni ala.
ona li lon ma ali: ni li pona ala tawa mi. ala!


See above on floating 'ala'.

moku waso lili en moku soweli laso li pona ala tawa sina: ni li lon ala lon?

jan pi nimi 'jan San li mi' o, ona li pona ala tawa mi.

poka soweli moku la sina ken ala ken li wile ala wile?

Goats aren't the usual 'soweli moku' (that seems to be cattle) but I don't have anything else (and a little Jamaican is nice now and again),

poka soweli moku la mi wile ala li ken ala. ala!

insa tomo tawa telo la sina wile ala wile li ken ala ken?

insa tomo tawa telo la mi ken ala li wile ala.
tenpo kama ala kin la mi moku lon poka soweli moku.

No 'lon'

tenpo kama ala la mi moku e ona insa telo sewi.

But here (perversely) you do need 'lon' and generally with 'insa' (and other body parts) , all of which also require 'pi' before two words or more for what they are parts of. So 'lon insa pi telo sewi' etc.

tenpo kama ala la mi moku e ona insa tomo tawa awen.
insa ala pimeja! insa ala kasi!


No 'pi' here since only one word follows, but still need 'lon' in the first sentence and the 'ala' is out of place (probably).

insa ala tomo tawa! sina o tu e sina en mi.
ona insa poki li pona ala tawa mi.
ona poka soweli lili loje li pona ala tawa mi.
tenpo kama ala la mi moke e ona insa tomo.
ona poka soweli lili wala li pona ala tawa mi.
ona lon ma ni anu ma ni ala li pona ala tawa mi.
ona lon ma ali li pona ala tawa mi. ala!
tenpo kama ala la mi moku e ona lon ma ni anuma ni ala. ala!
ona li lon ma ali: ni li pona ala tawa mi.

ona li pona ala tawa sina. sina toki e ni.
o moku e ona. o moku e ona. a! ken la sina wile.
mi toki e ni: o moku e ona la sina wile.

jan San!
sina tu e sina en mi la tenpo kama la mi moku e ona.

I get the imprssion (memory?) that 'sina tu e sina en mi' is meant to mean something like “You share it between you and me”. It doesn't mean that, the nearest I can thing of easily is 'sina pana e wan/kipisi ona tawa mi' “You give a piece of it to me”

tenpo kama la sina sona.
toki! 
moku waso lili en moku soweli laso li pona tawa mi. a!
pona tawa mi! 
jan pi nimi 'jan San li mi' o, ona li pona tawa mi. a!
tenpo kama ken la mi moku e ona lon insa pi tomo tawa telo.
tenpo kama ken la mi moku e ona poka soweli moku.
tenpo kama ken la mi moku e ona lon insa pi telo sewi
en lon insa pimeja en lon insa pi tomo tawa awen
en lon insa pi tomo tawa en lon insa kasi.

The 'en's are not strictly necessary but useful for emphasis.

ona li pona kin... pona kin. sina sona. a!
tenpo kama la mi moku e ona lon insa poki.
tenpo kama la mi moku e ona poka soweli lili loje.
tenpo kama la mi moku e ona lon insa tomo.
tenpo kama la mi moku e ona poka soweli lili walo.
tenpo kama la mi moku e ona lon ma ni anu ma ni ala.
toki! tenpo kama la mi moku e ona lon ma ali. a!
moku waso lili en moku soweli laso li pona kin tawa mi. a!
pona!
jan pi nimi 'jan San e mi' o, pona!

Re: Green Eggs and Ham

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:59 pm
by janKulisa
Definitely "green (eggs and ham)", going by the picture.

"sina o tu e sina en mi"; this seems to be a translation of "You let me be!" But it's still a somewhat awkward wording; I'd probably translate it "(sina) o weka/tawa tan mi!" or some such thing.

I'm too tired to analyze the rest, and the book is in another room; maybe I'll examine it more another time...

Re: Green Eggs and Ham

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:31 am
by sonatan
is "kili laso jelo pi soweli jaki" acceptable for green ham? if i hyphenate like a parser… can the "pi" be dropped? it seems that "moku waso" or "moku soweli" might just as easily be translated as bird food and animal food. what about "mama sike" for egg? or possibly "kili pi mama waso"?

kili laso-jelo soweli-jaki en mama-sike laso-jelo li pona ala pona tawa sina?

kili soweli-mani li pona tawa mi. nasin ni li nasa ala nasa tawa sina?

Re: Green Eggs and Ham

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:56 am
by janKipo
Well, I suppose that 'soweli jaki' will do for "pig", though it is a little unfair to pigs (but ties in with a popular view). On the other hand, 'kili' just seems wrong as a general word for "food". I suppose such a usage could develop, but it hasn't and I don't see any reason why it would or should. What is your argument for it?

Hyphens have no role in. tp per se, only in Mato's analysis and eve there they do not do away with 'pi', which actually is a part of the language.

Yes, the more you compress expressions in tp the more ambiguous they get (same as English or any language, usually). So, 'moku pi tawa soweli' and 'moku pi tan soweli' both compress to 'moku soweli'. tp can be pretty unambiguous, but it gets very long-winded in the process.

"egg" is 'sike mama'; it is a sphere, not a parent. It is not a fruit, either, though a better case is apparent there. 'sike waso' also works for "egg" in the food sense.

I still think that 'laso jelo' needs a 'pi', though the arguments goes on.

In short, ala. nasa

Re: Green Eggs and Ham

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:09 am
by sonatan
I would not suggest "kili" be used as a general word for food, but rather a word for the " product of". "kili pi soweli-jaki" would translate literally to "fruit of pig" or pork. In comparison, "moku soweli" translates to pig slop or dog food just as easily as anything. "monsi pi soweli jaki" is pig's butt. "mama sike" was a typo. "sike mama" maybe clear enough to be egg. "kili pi was mama" seems logical.
kili pi pali mi li pona.

As to "pi", it is intended to separate a noun from another noun that has an adjective. If I use the hyphen, it's clear that those words are taken together, mimicing the way I would say them, negating the necessity of "pi" in this case. "kili pi soweli jaki" and "kili soweli-jaki" are equivalent. This would apply to "laso-jelo". jan Mato has written making a case just such usage.http://www.suburbandestiny.com/?p=217 it's rather old but I would guess that's how the hyphen made its way to the parser. I would argue that simple compounding using the hyphen is much clearer and more efficient. I recognize it's not canonical and you disagree with the usage but it's logical and easily understood.

English or other natural languages don't compress the same as tp. English added the word "ham" to circumvent the long-winded description without making it ambiguous. Adding words is a luxury not afforded to tp so it just becomes more and more ambiguous when compressed.
My instinct is to be as concise as the language will allow. Is it better to embrace the ambiguity? Is the detail of this being ham and eggs important? This feels more like a paraphrase than a translation.

moku ante li pona ala pona tawa sina?

That removed the need for all those adjectives and removed the confusion a non-European may have over the concept of the butt of a disgusting animal and the testicles of a bird. They might have also assumed green meant rancid. It also takes care of any perceived slight to our porcine friends. Is it valid?

Re: Green Eggs and Ham

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:54 am
by janKipo
Well, translating or paraphrasing a nonsense work like this is an inherently impossible task. You may get nonsense, of course, but it will likely be a different ( and probably less funny) nonsense.Way too much depends on the sounds, for one very important thing.In this case, of course, a lot also depends on the pictures. There is also a lot of associations going on that militate against too much paraphrase: ham and eggs is a standard favorite; just shifting the order is already starting down a path toward something strange. Coloring them green has a lot of echoes for older people, for children they are just strange -- maybe exciting, maybe dangerous. All of that is lost in 'moku ante'. That is, yes, the particulars are important (it has to be in a boat with a goat, a vehicle with a critter won't do).
'kili' for"product of" make good sense but hasn't happened before.The contrast with 'moku soweli' is fairly convincing.
Aside from the mischaracterization of 'pi', your discussion of hyphens mixes two things and misrepresents Mato. He used hyphens as an analytic tool to mark idioms or potential idioms;not a part of the llanguage but a tool for mechanical handling of the language. 'pi' is a part of the language; indeed, one of the parts that helps place hyphens in the analysis. But there are 'pi' phrases that don't get hyphens and many hyphens that are unrelated to 'pi'.