sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

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janLuka
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sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

Postby janLuka » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:05 am

One of Aesop's fables translated into tp, french, spanish, swedish and english from the Latin. Please help me correct any mistakes in any of the languages (except the latin).

jan utala li kama jo e jan pi kalama musi pi kulupu utala ante. jan pi kalama musi li toki e ni: "o moli ala e mi tan ni: mi ken ala pakala e sina. mi jo e ilo pi kalama musi taso. mi jo ala e ilo moli." taso jan utala li toki e ni: "sina jo ala e ilo moli. taso mi wile moli e sina tan ni: sina suli e wile utala pi jan utala ike mi kepeken kalama musi." --sitelen toki ni li pana e sona ni: jan li pali e ike la ona li jan ike. jan li suli e wile ike pi jan ante la ona li jan ike kin.

Tubicen ab hostibus captus, ne me, inquit, interficite; nam inermis sum, neque quidquam habeo praeter hanc tubam. At propter hoc ipsum, inquiunt, te interimemus; quod, quum ipse pugnandi sis imperitus, alios ad pugnam incitare soles. —Fabula docet, non solum maleficos esse puniendos, sed etiam eos, qui alios ad male faciendum irritent.

Le trompettiste de l'armée qui s'est fait prisonnier des ennemis a dit, "Ne me tuez pas, car je suis désarmé: je n'ai que cette trompette." Ils ont répondu: "Mais si, c'est pour cela que nous te tuons. Bien que tu ne puisses pas lutter toi-même, tu incites toujours les autres au combat." La morale de la fable: Non seulement celui qui fait du mal doit être puni, mais aussi celui qui entraîne les autres à faire du mal.

El trompetista del ejército había sido capturado por los enemigos. Él dijo-- "No maten a mi, porque soy inerme. No tengo nada más que esta trompeta." Los enemigos respondieron: "Pero te matamos por esto mismo: tú no puedes luchar tú mismo pero tú siempre incitas los otros a la batalla." La fábula enseña que no solo él que hace mal es punido, mas también él que hace que los otros hagan mal.

Trumpetare gripas av fiendernas armén. Han sade, "Döda mig inte! Jag är helt ofarlig. Jag har bara en trumpet." Fientliga soldaterna svarade, "Vi dödar dig precis för det. Du kan inte bekämpa själv, men du anstiftar andra människor att bekämpa mot oss." Fabeln säger det: Om en man göra dåliga saker, han borde straffas. Men också om en man anstiftar andra människor att göra dåliga saker borde han straffas.

The trumpeter, captured by enemy soldiers, said, "Don't kill me, for I am unarmed. I have nothing but this trumpet." The soldiers replied, "That is why we have to kill you. Although you cannot fight yourself, you incite others to battle." The moral of the story: Not only those who do evil should be punished, but also those who encourage them.
Last edited by janLuka on Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:57 pm, edited 11 times in total.

Kuti
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Re: sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

Postby Kuti » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:36 am

Français : inerme ne s'emploie pas dans ce cas là, on pourrait dire "sans arme" ou "désarmé". Sinon le reste est bon.
pona mute!

janKipo
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Re: sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

Postby janKipo » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:14 pm

ken la sina wile sitelen e kulupu 'jan pi kalama musi' e kulupu 'ilo pi...'
ken la 'nimi 'tan ni' li lon sinpin pi kulupu 'mi mute li wile moli'
mi la 'pana e sona ni:'
tan seme la sina sitelen e kulupu 'tan jan nanpa tu'? mi la 'tawa'
'jan nanpa wan en jan nanpa tu kin'
'ona li pakala e jan pi pali ike pi taso ala e ni kin: jan li kama e ni: jan ante li pali ike.' jaki a!

janMato
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Re: sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

Postby janMato » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:53 pm

jan li kin pona ala.

kin is an odd word. jan Kipo event puts in in a category of it's own or Group F http://tpnimi.blogspot.com/

http://tpnimi.blogspot.com/p/nimi-sama-1.html <-- implies kin must follow something, or be in a la fragment "kin la", or an exclamation, like a/mu

In a predicate sentence, kin would make more sense as:

jan li pona ala kin.

I found 14 uses of "li kin" in the corpus-- half of these were "li kin + verb", a few were "li kin + predicate"

janMato
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Re: sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

Postby janMato » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:56 pm

janKipo wrote:'ona li pakala e jan pi pali ike pi taso ala e ni kin: jan li kama e ni: jan ante li pali ike.' jaki a!


Yup, taso can't follow pi-- 0 hits of "pi taso" in the corpus.

janKipo
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Re: sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

Postby janKipo » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:40 pm

That's only "doesn't", not "can't" but I agree that this piece (indeed this whole complex sentence) is highly suspect. I was trying to do some of the "not only ... but also..." ("non solum ... sed etiam" in the Latin). But the whole thing is in the passive voice, which is impossible in tp -- and 'ona li' isn't going to do it. And. of course, the relative clauses. What a mare's nest of boobytraps in one sentence. Further suggestion urgently sought.

janLuka
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Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:42 am

Re: sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

Postby janLuka » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:49 pm

jan ali o, pona.

janKipo wrote:ken la sina wile sitelen e kulupu 'jan pi kalama musi' e kulupu 'ilo pi...'
tan seme la sina sitelen e kulupu 'tan jan nanpa tu'? mi la 'tawa'


I used 'tan jan nanpa tu' and not 'tawa jan nanpa tu' because I intended to say:
"if the first person did something bad because of the second person (i.e. the second person encouraged the first one to do it), they're both doing wrong."
not: "the second person did something bad to the first person."
I was trying to use "kin" to mean "both" but I think it's not needed.

I added "la" in the last sentence so now it's meant to mean: [person #1 does something wrong because of person #2]in this case, [person #1 and person#2 (both) have done wrong.]

janKipo
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Re: sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

Postby janKipo » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:36 pm

Thanks. Sorry about predictive reading leading me astray on that. The 'kin' is there in the Latin, for what that's worth, since the Latin moral is slightly different. But yours is a good way to get around the problems of the original.

jan-ante
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Re: sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

Postby jan-ante » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:09 pm

jan utala li kama jo e jan pi kalama musi pi kulupu utala ante. jan pi kalama musi li toki e ni: jan utala o moli ala e mi. mi jo e ilo pi kalama musi taso mi jo ala e ilo moli. tan ni la mi ken ala moli e sina li ken ala pakala sina. jan utala li toki e ni: tan ni li pona tawa moli sina. o lukin: sina suli e wile utala pi jan ike mi kepeken kalama musi. mi o moli e sina!
ni li sona insa pi toki ni: jan li utala e sina la ona li jan ike sina. jan li kama suli e wile utala pi jan ike sina la ona li jan ike suli sina

janKipo
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Re: sitelen toki pi jan Esopo (Aesop)

Postby janKipo » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:05 pm

tan ni li pona tawa moli sina. Needs a subject between 'ni LA'. "your lethal traveling good"? I suppose you want "It is right to kill you" tp doesn't do infinitives at all well; you have to go back to full sentences 'tan ni la mi moli e sina. ni li pona' (You cold do it in reverse order, but that puts two 'ni's next to one another, which is unsightly.
mii o moli e sina "I, kill you!" I suppose you want "I should kill you" which comes out as 'mi wile moli e sina', which usually seems either too weak (want to) or too strong (have to). The force driving the killing is, in this case, just prudence or, perhaps, strategy.
I am not sure that the musician (in this case) is a more important enemy that the actual soldier, but he is also ('kin' after 'ike') an enemy. Again a good dodge around the probably very difficult original.


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