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Fortuna by Corvus Corax, medivial latin lyrics

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:35 pm
by janMato
Fortuna
Fortuna, Fortuna, Fortune bona primitus

Fortune bona primitus voluntas est inversa,
In meque michi penitus novercatur aversa.

Nam ferre scimus eum Fortune clipeum.

Fate
Fate! Fate! Highest good fate,
Highest good fate, you favor has gone away
On me, my remorse, I'm cursed, loathed,
But now, we know to carry fate's shield.

Nasin Suli pi Kama Pona pi Kama mani!

Nasin Suli! Nasin Suli! Nasin pi tempo kama li wan li pona!
Jan pi tempo kama li wan li pona! sina weka e olin,
mi pilin e ni: tan ala mi pini la mi pilin ike! ala li wile e ike tawa mi, ala li utala pilin e mi,
taso tenpo ni la mi ala li sona li wile jo e ni: lipu awen sike pi Nasin Suli pi Kama Pona pi Kama mani!

Feel free to correct my Latin or tp translation.

Re: Fortuna by Corvus Corax, medivial latin lyrics

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:28 am
by janKipo
Well, Raven's is different from the Orff Carmina Burana but maybe also from the Benedictbueren mss. My medieval Latin is worse than my classical (which is more than fifty years out of practice) so I can't comment on the trat (and can't make out a few of the words at all -- after my time, as they say). But I get the general idea (which is the one always for Fortuna -- it turns on you and you learn to bear it or not).

So, why 'nasin suli' "Great Path" for "fate, luck, chance"? I would think of just 'kama' "happenstance" or, if that is too modern, 'wile' "Necessity" and whence "to Future good at coming money" or whatever? Not there at all (more likely about chick magnetism anyhow).
An 'o' if this is addressed to Fortuna, which there is not indication that it is.
"Road to the future is one and good"? The Latin seems to be "the goods of Fortune at first" but that is ciceronian not 1200
"Fortune's good will is turned upside down" I guess"You throw away love [for me]" makes the same point.
Next line is late Latin, no clues, but the Eng and the tp don't coincide well "Nobody wants evil for me, nobody fights thoughtfully against me" I suppose 'ala' is really 'ali' (worst possible minimal pair). 'tan ala mi pini. " the final my not source" needs something, but I can't figure out what.

"But now not us (I suppose "we all" again) know and want to have this: the constant flat circle of the great path to future good and future money" I suppose 'awen' is 'kiwen' "round metal flat thing" = "shield" and whence all the rest. It just says
"We know (how) to carry this shield of Fortune" ' mi ali li sona e nasin ni: mi ... How the Hell do we say "carry" ... e lipu kiwen sike pi whatever is the way to say Fortune.'

Re: Fortuna by Corvus Corax, medivial latin lyrics

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:54 pm
by janMato
(a slightly better Latin translation)
Fate! Fate! Fate's initial benefits,
Fate's initial benefits, Fate's favor has been revoked.
As for me, I have regrets, I'm cursed, I'm loathed, The "me me" construction is found in modern Italian is just emphasis, like "as for me, I ..."
But now, we know to carry fate's shield.

I started with "Jan sewi pi kama ilo pona" or great being that brings good things. But that is to anthropomorphic. Being in Latin they probably had the 3 sisters in mind, but being that this is medieval, they probably had already moved on to abstractions. Maybe "Nasi sewi suli pi kama pona" ~ great religious ideas of bringing good?

Nasin sewi suli pi kama pona!

Nasin sewi ! Nasin sewi! wan la *kama la nasin pi kama pona li pona! (Hmm, not sure what I originally had in mind)
wan la kama la nasin suli pi kama pona li pona! ona weka e olin e pona e ilo pona e mani, (no longer any sense of vocative)
mi pilin e ni: ** tan ali mi pini la mi pilin ike! ali li wile e ike tawa mi, ali li utala pilin e mi, (How do you say curse/hate/loathe in toki pona? I'm still fuzzy on how to modify verbs.)
taso tenpo ni la ***mi ala li sona li wile jo e ni: lipu kiwen sike pi Nasin sewi suli pi kama pona pi kama moku pona!

* kama la (initially? dictionary says "kama" can mean beginning")

** How to I express remorse (penitus)? "Because of all I have done, I feel bad"
tan ali mi pini la mi pilin ike!

*** mi ala =? all of us?

Re: Fortuna by Corvus Corax, medivial latin lyrics

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:01 pm
by janKipo
Well, let's see. The Medievals had Fortune as abstract but personal -- and female (yes, this is conflicted), so 'jan sewi' is not inappropriate. The point of fortune songs is always that Fortune changes (see Orff's "Fortune, like the moon"), so, emphasizing the good is just wishful thinking, not accurate. And, as noted, money is not the main interest usually, chicks is.
'wan la' expects 'tu la,' a list. 'nanpa wan la,' "first," works much the same way. I like 'open la,' "in the beginning," but that is not a widely shared preference, I think.
'nasin' is not great as "idea," though it covers some sense of that, 'pilin' is also possible, and even 'kon.'
"because of all I have done" (where is that, by the way) 'tan pali mi ali,' at a guess, but where to put it -- presumably at the end of the sentence in the prep place.
'ona LI weka..." though I still don't see where you get all the rest there.
Your "curse," etc. look pretty good.
Still, 'mi ali' not 'mi ala'
Still no solution for "carry." It is not clear just what the last line means "We know how to bear the shield" "We know that we bear the shield" "We know that we must bear the shield" and I get the idea that it is the weight, not the protective use, that is involved here.