how to say it good: must

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Re: how to say it good: must

Post by toto1980toto1980toto1980 »

--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, "galactonerd" <galactonerd@...> wrote:>> --- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, "cxielamiko" <cxielamiko@> wrote:> >> > Toki!> > How do members translate in the toki pona the following sentence: "I> > must love my homeland."?> >> > Kiavoje la membroj tradukos en toki pona gxin: "Mi devas ami mian> > naskigxlandon."?> >>> In Japanese, there is a good construction for "must;" in this case,> it would be, "(Watashi no) kuni o ai shinakereba narimasen," or,> roughly, "If I don't love my country, it's not all right.">> So in Toki Pona, it would be, "mi olin ala e ma mi la, ni li pona> ala.">> I don't think "wile" is good for this purpose, because there are> things we have to do even if we don't want to. One can argue that we> don't "have to" do anything, but I think the "X li Y ala la, ni li> pona ala" construction expresses it better than "wile.">> Example:>> mi wile pana e mani tawa kulupu lawa. I want to give money to the> government.> mi pana ala e mani tawa kulupu lawa la, ni li pona ala. If I don't> give money to the government, this is not good.>> jan Sosuwa>that's very interesting. i'll borrow that pattern. in some cases, ofcause, wile is more appropriate. but in other cases that pattern ismakes much more sense. many thanks. :)
John E Clifford

Re: Re: how to say it good: must

Post by John E Clifford »

________________________________From: jean-luc DESTREE <jldestree@hotmail.fr>To: toki pona <tokipona@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:42:17 PMSubject: RE: [tokipona] Re: how to say it good: mustjan Sosuwa o toki !toki ni li pona mute tawa mi. li jo e nimi mute taso mi pona e ni : li lon.I always was disturbed by the two main meanings of "wile" : "ought to/devoir"and "want/vouloir" , it's absolutely not the same.jan JanlukaAs noted earlier, tp was founded by some meta-logicians. Rather than lookingfor very precise notions they took the general one "strong modal" and gave it aform 'wile' (and, of course, "weak modal" and 'ken'). That is "a strongcompulsion drives [subject] to action/state [infinitive]." What that force maybe is left undeclared but can be specified -- if need be -- by more prolix means(similarly for "no relevant force works against" and 'ken'). The fundamentallogic is the same throughout (though even that claim is open to challenge) butthe details differ.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
agneau belanyek

Re: how to say it good: must

Post by agneau belanyek »

jan ale o, toki!--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, John E Clifford <kali9putra@...> wrote:>> I always was disturbed by the two main meanings of> "wile" : "ought to/devoir" and "want/vouloir" ,> it's absolutely not the same.>> jan Janluka>> As noted earlier, tp was founded by some meta-logicians.> Rather than looking for very precise notions they took the> general one "strong modal" and gave it a form 'wile' (and, of> course, "weak modal" and 'ken'). That is "a strong compulsion> drives [subject] to action/state [infinitive]." What that force> may be is left undeclared but can be specified -- if need be -- by> more prolix means (similarly for "no relevant force works against"> and 'ken'). The fundamental logic is the same throughout (though> even that claim is open to challenge) but the details differ.I think that part of the issue is that in toki pona, at least in usageand probably also by design, assertions are always made from the pointof view of the speaker. (I think i have seen it described somewhere astoki pona being introspective).mi wile <verb>... therefore implies that the "strong compulsion" comesfrom the speaker. In this case, I don't think the differencebetween "ought to" and "want to" is significant. Either way, I feelstrongly obliged to <verb>.when the compulsion is external (and this matters), i feel this oughtto be explicitly stated, using some of the expressions we have seen. Imust go to war is better expressed as "kulupu lawa li wile e ni: miutala." than "mi wile utala" which suggests (in the absence of othercontext) that the compulsion comes from me "i.e. i want to go to war".however, if the fact that the compulsion is external to the speaker hasbeen established in the context, then one can say "mi wile utala"without it being misunderstood as "i want to... "in a similar vein, i often see people writing "ni li pona tawa mi",where "ni li pona" probably means the same thing. "ni li pona" beingunderstood as an expression of the speaker's opinion. I feel that "tawami" should only be added to stress that there is a difference inopinions. and if it is important to convey the fact that it is ageneral opinion, this ought to be specified or made clear by thecontext . (e.g. ni li pona tawa jan mute)jan Sowelilili
jean-luc DESTREE

RE: Re: how to say it good: must

Post by jean-luc DESTREE »

o toki !Your remarks about compulsion , personal or external, with example of "I must goto war", are very interesting and cleverI agree with them, and it demonstrates one more time the flexibility of TP,without a lot of wordso tawa ponajan JanlukaLast night, I remarked this compound word in Wikipesija : "Nasin sewi pi jo etan ale" ! perhaps it means : "Métaphysique" ?To: tokipona@yahoogroups.comFrom: agneau.belanyek@virgin.netDate: Sun, 16 Nov2008 10:11:04 +0000Subject: [tokipona] Re: how to say it good: mustjan ale o, toki!--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, John E Clifford<kali9putra@...> wrote:>> I always was disturbed by the two main meanings of >"wile" : "ought to/devoir" and "want/vouloir" , > it's absolutely not the same.>> jan Janluka> > As noted earlier, tp was founded by some meta-logicians. >Rather than looking for very precise notions they took the > general one "strongmodal" and gave it a form 'wile' (and, of> course, "weak modal" and 'ken'). Thatis "a strong compulsion> drives [subject] to action/state [infinitive]." Whatthat force> may be is left undeclared but can be specified -- if need be -- by>more prolix means (similarly for "no relevant force works against"> and 'ken').The fundamental logic is the same throughout (though> even that claim is open tochallenge) but the details differ.I think that part of the issue is that in tokipona, at least in usage and probably also by design, assertions are always madefrom the point of view of the speaker. (I think i have seen it describedsomewhere as toki pona being introspective). mi wile <verb>... therefore impliesthat the "strong compulsion" comes from the speaker. In this case, I don't thinkthe difference between "ought to" and "want to" is significant. Either way, Ifeel strongly obliged to <verb>.when the compulsion is external (and thismatters), i feel this ought to be explicitly stated, using some of theexpressions we have seen. I must go to war is better expressed as "kulupu lawali wile e ni: mi utala." than "mi wile utala" which suggests (in the absence ofother context) that the compulsion comes from me "i.e. i want to go towar".however, if the fact that the compulsion is external to the speaker hasbeen established in the context, then one can say "mi wile utala" without itbeing misunderstood as "i want to... "in a similar vein, i often see peoplewriting "ni li pona tawa mi", where "ni li pona" probably means the same thing."ni li pona" being understood as an expression of the speaker's opinion. I feelthat "tawa mi" should only be added to stress that there is a difference inopinions. and if it is important to convey the fact that it is a generalopinion, this ought to be specified or made clear by the context . (e.g. ni lipona tawa jan mute)jan Sowelilili_________________________________________________________________Email envoyé avec Windows Live Hotmail. Dites adieux aux spam et virus, passez àHotmail ! C'est gratuit !http://www.windowslive.fr/hotmail/default.asp[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AJK

Re: Re: how to say it good: must

Post by AJK »

2008/11/16 jean-luc DESTREE <jldestree@hotmail.fr>:> Last night, I remarked this compound word in Wikipesija : "Nasin sewi pi jo etan ale" ! perhaps it means : "Métaphysique" ?whatever it is, it's bad grammar... :(--http://espe.ranto.nlhttp://lost.eu/78c6e
jean-luc DESTREE

RE: Re: how to say it good: must

Post by jean-luc DESTREE »

jan ali o toki !mi lukin e lupa suli pi Wikipesija li pilin e ni : mute lili pi on li ala lon li"wile kepeken" ( = "need/avoir besoin" - is that correct ?) sitelen toki sin.sina pilin e seme ?ijo ante la, jan Sonja li toki e ni : lipu sona suli pi ona li kama lon tenpokama lili. ni li lon ala lon ?mi wile pona e ni : ni li lon.jan JanlukaTo: tokipona@yahoogroups.comFrom: ikojba@gmail.comDate: Sun, 16 Nov 200815:33:31 +0100Subject: Re: [tokipona] Re: how to say it good: must2008/11/16 jean-luc DESTREE <jldestree@hotmail.fr>:> Last night, I remarked thiscompound word in Wikipesija : "Nasin sewi pi jo e tan ale" ! perhaps it means :"Métaphysique" ?whatever it is, it's bad grammar... :(--http://espe.ranto.nlhttp://lost.eu/78c6 ... _____Email envoyé avec Windows Live Hotmail. Dites adieux aux spam et virus, passez àHotmail ! C'est gratuit !http://www.windowslive.fr/hotmail/default.asp[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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