«New England» li seme lon toki pona?

John E Clifford · Post by **John E Clifford** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:04 pm

Well, garden pathing is a misleading interpretation that is eventually corrected because the results fail to cohere with the rest of the sentence, so they are related in general form, but the details are very different (it seems to me).----- Original Message ----From: Josan Kapo <mail@jonathangabel.com>To: tokipona@yahoogroups.comSent: Wednesday, December 5, 2007 3:13:12 PMSubject: [tokipona] Re: «New England» li seme lon toki pona?> I'm not sure if there is a quick way to say "to argue by assuming> something is true, then demonstrating that such an assumption leads to> a ridiculous conclusion and thereby showing the original proposition> to be false," since I can't even say that briefly in English.> I think its called "garden pathing through the stinging nettles."

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Francois Schwicker · Post by **Francois Schwicker** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:01 am

--- Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestiny.com> wrote:>> reduc(t!)io ad absurdum: wan li kama nasin e ijopilin> kepeken nimi mute> kepeken nimi nasinmi ken ala sona e toki sina. sina ken ala ken pana etoki ni lon toki Inli anu lon toki Epelanto ?Of which verb is "e ijo" the object ?jan Kanso ________________________________________________________________________________\____Be a better friend, newshound, andknow-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62s ... o8Wcj9tAcJ

Matthew Martin · Post by **Matthew Martin** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:44 am

My tireless error making will probably add words to toki pona's lexicon.wan li kama nasa e ijo.... to make something absurdone become absurd something...mi open kama sona e nasin sin tan kulupu nimi ni.kin, mi sona ala nimi ni: "one" lon toki Inli, "on" lon toki Kansepossible translations for the indefinite pronoun...wan jan li kute. one listens.wan li kute. one listensona li kute. one listens. (but also he listens, not sure contextwould make it clear that I'm using an indefinate pronoun)jan li kute. one listens. (Still sounds like I have a particular person in mind)li kute. one listens.mi tawa,jan Matthew MartinOn Dec 6, 2007 4:01 AM, Francois Schwicker <bubi4919@yahoo.com> wrote:>>>>>>>> --- Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestiny.com> wrote:>> >> > reduc(t!)io ad absurdum: wan li kama nasin e ijo>> pilin> > kepeken nimi mute> > kepeken nimi nasin>> mi ken ala sona e toki sina. sina ken ala ken pana e> toki ni lon toki Inli anu lon toki Epelanto ?>> Of which verb is "e ijo" the object ?>> jan Kanso>> __________________________________________________________>> Be a better friend, newshound, and> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62s ... o8Wcj9tAcJ>>>

Helmut Voigt · Post by **Helmut Voigt** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:26 am

"One listens" sounds a bit strange to me. In tp, I would preferably use "jan li kute" or "jan mute li kute", but not "wan", because this "one" actually means an undefined number of people and not just one person. As in French, "on dit" does not mean that only one person says something but that, on the contrary, many people do so. I think that "li kute" won't work at all because "li" is used to separate the subject from the verb. In your example, there is no subject at all, so "li kute" is just "listens" or "is listening", etc. and not a complete sentence. When writing these lines I once more feel how difficult it is to explain something using tp. Besides, I'm still not quite sure whether "mi awen pali" means that I interrupt my work or that I continue with it. Any suggestions? jan Elumutu Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestiny.com> schrieb: My tireless error making will probably add words to toki pona's lexicon.wan li kama nasa e ijo.... to make something absurdone become absurd something...mi open kama sona e nasin sin tan kulupu nimi ni.kin, mi sona ala nimi ni: "one" lon toki Inli, "on" lon toki Kansepossible translations for the indefinite pronoun...wan jan li kute. one listens.wan li kute. one listensona li kute. one listens. (but also he listens, not sure contextwould make it clear that I'm using an indefinate pronoun)jan li kute. one listens. (Still sounds like I have a particular person inmind)li kute. one listens.mi tawa,jan Matthew MartinOn Dec 6, 2007 4:01 AM, Francois Schwicker <bubi4919@yahoo.com> wrote:>>>>>>>> --- Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestiny.com> wrote:>> >> > reduc(t!)io ad absurdum: wan li kama nasin e ijo>> pilin> > kepeken nimi mute> > kepeken nimi nasin>> mi ken ala sona e toki sina. sina ken ala ken pana e> toki ni lon toki Inli anu lon toki Epelanto ?>> Of which verb is "e ijo" the object ?>> jan Kanso>> __________________________________________________________>> Be a better friend, newshound, and> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62s ... o8Wcj9tAcJ>>> Ihr erstes Fernweh? Wo gibt es den schönsten Strand.

John E Clifford · Post by **John E Clifford** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:29 pm

Well, I'm of the 'continue' sene of 'awen', but there are probably more 'stop' cases in actual sage (not that there are many uses altogether. 'Stop' is 'pini' in my mind, although someone might argue that this is only for completion; I'm not sure tp is up to those kinds of distinctions.----- Original Message ----From: Helmut Voigt <akesi_palisa@yahoo.de>To: tokipona@yahoogroups.comSent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 9:26:10 AMSubject: Re: [tokipona] «New England» li seme lon toki pona?"One listens" sounds a bit strange to me. In tp, I would preferably use "jan li kute" or "jan mute li kute", but not "wan", because this "one" actually means an undefined number of people and not just one person. As in French, "on dit" does not mean that only one person says something but that, on the contrary, many people do so. I think that "li kute" won't work at all because "li" is used to separate the subject from the verb. In your example, there is no subject at all, so "li kute" is just "listens" or "is listening", etc. and not a complete sentence. When writing these lines I once more feel how difficult it is to explain something using tp. Besides, I'm still not quite sure whether "mi awen pali" means that I interrupt my work or that I continue with it. Any suggestions? jan Elumutu Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestin y.com> schrieb: My tireless error making will probably add words to toki pona's lexicon.wan li kama nasa e ijo.... to make something absurdone become absurd something...mi open kama sona e nasin sin tan kulupu nimi ni.kin, mi sona ala nimi ni: "one" lon toki Inli, "on" lon toki Kansepossible translations for the indefinite pronoun...wan jan li kute. one listens.wan li kute. one listensona li kute. one listens. (but also he listens, not sure contextwould make it clear that I'm using an indefinate pronoun)jan li kute. one listens. (Still sounds like I have a particular person inmind)li kute. one listens.mi tawa,jan Matthew MartinOn Dec 6, 2007 4:01 AM, Francois Schwicker <bubi4919@yahoo. com> wrote:>>>>>>>> --- Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestin y.com> wrote:>> >> > reduc(t!)io ad absurdum: wan li kama nasin e ijo>> pilin> > kepeken nimi mute> > kepeken nimi nasin>> mi ken ala sona e toki sina. sina ken ala ken pana e> toki ni lon toki Inli anu lon toki Epelanto ?>> Of which verb is "e ijo" the object ?>> jan Kanso>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __________>> Be a better friend, newshound, and> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.> http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ>>> Ihr erstes Fernweh? Wo gibt es den schönsten Strand. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

John E Clifford · Post by **John E Clifford** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:37 pm

Hmmm! It seems to mean about the same either way, but it does point to a problem with modals (that take whole predicates as complement), namely that the attachment of an object is always ambiguous in just this way -- though usually context does decide or else it makes no difference. "One brings (causes to come) something to craziness (object of 'kama') " or "one causes that something is crazy (object of vt 'nasa')."----- Original Message ----From: Francois Schwicker <bubi4919@yahoo.com>To: tokipona@yahoogroups.comSent:Thursday, December 6, 2007 3:01:04 AMSubject: Re: [tokipona] «New England» li seme lon toki pona?--- Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestin y.com> wrote:> > reduc(t!)io ad absurdum: wan li kama nasin e ijopilin> kepeken nimi mute> kepeken nimi nasinmi ken ala sona e toki sina. sina ken ala ken pana etoki ni lon toki Inli anu lon toki Epelanto ?Of which verb is "e ijo" the object ?jan Kanso____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

John E Clifford · Post by **John E Clifford** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:48 pm

----- Original Message ----From: Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestiny.com>To: tokipona@yahoogroups.comSent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 8:44:19 AMSubject: Re: [tokipona] «New England» li seme lon toki pona?My tireless error making will probably add words to toki pona's lexicon.wan li kama nasa e ijo.... to make something absurdone become absurd something...mi open kama sona e nasin sin tan kulupu nimi ni.kin, mi sona ala nimi ni: "one" lon toki Inli, "on" lon toki Kansepossible translations for the indefinite pronoun...wan jan li kute. one listens.A piece of man listenswan li kute. one listensA unit listensona li kute. one listens. (but also he listens, not sure contextwould make it clear that I'm using an indefinate pronoun)Well, 'he' requires -- to be definite -- a previous reference to somebody in the context. I have to admit, my usage is influenced by Es 'oni' and thus Fr 'on' although the dictionary says the source of 'ona' is Croatian, I think.jan li kute. one listens. (Still sounds like I have a particular person in mind)Somebody listens. this does sound like there is an actual person who listens, whereas the lawlike formulation you were after is more hypothetical than that, "anybody who listens, ..."li kute. one listens.Not a sentence.mi tawa,jan Matthew MartinOn Dec 6, 2007 4:01 AM, Francois Schwicker <bubi4919@yahoo. com> wrote:>>>>>>>> --- Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestin y.com> wrote:>> >> > reduc(t!)io ad absurdum: wan li kama nasin e ijo>> pilin> > kepeken nimi mute> > kepeken nimi nasin>> mi ken ala sona e toki sina. sina ken ala ken pana e> toki ni lon toki Inli anu lon toki Epelanto ?>> Of which verb is "e ijo" the object ?>> jan Kanso>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _>> Be a better friend, newshound, and> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.> http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ>>> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Josan Kapo · Post by **Josan Kapo** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:33 pm

I thought sentences like this would have to be broken down with "e ni:"Something like:ona (/ wan/ jan) li kama e ni: ijo li nasa.--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, John E Clifford <kali9putra@...> wrote:>> Hmmm! It seems to mean about the same either way, but it does point to aproblemwith modals (that take whole predicates as complement), namely that theattachment of anobject is always ambiguous in just this way -- though usually context doesdecide or elseit makes no difference. "One brings (causes to come) something to craziness(object of'kama') " or "one causes that something is crazy (object of vt 'nasa').">> ----- Original Message ----> From: Francois Schwicker <bubi4919@...>> To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 3:01:04 AM> Subject: Re: [tokipona] «New England» li seme lon toki pona?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestin y.com> wrote:>>>> >>> > reduc(t!)io ad absurdum: wan li kama nasin e ijo>> pilin>> > kepeken nimi mute>> > kepeken nimi nasin>>>> mi ken ala sona e toki sina. sina ken ala ken pana e>> toki ni lon toki Inli anu lon toki Epelanto ?>>>> Of which verb is "e ijo" the object ?>>>> jan Kanso>>>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _>> Be a better friend, newshound, and>> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________\____> Be a better friend, newshound, and> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62s ... o8Wcj9tAcJ>

Francois Schwicker · Post by **Francois Schwicker** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:39 pm

--- Matthew Martin <matt@suburbandestiny.com> wrote:>> wan li kama nasa e ijo.... to make something absurd> one become absurd something...From the official word list : "nasa", as a transitiveverb, means : to drive crazy, to make weird> kin, mi sona ala nimi ni: "one" lon toki Inli, "on"> lon toki KanseFrom the official word list, too : "jan" :...somebody, anybody ..., among other meanings ________________________________________________________________________________\____Be a better friend, newshound, andknow-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62s ... o8Wcj9tAcJ

Josan Kapo · Post by **Josan Kapo** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:00 pm

Then, the kama is redundant, isn't it? We would just have to say: jan li nasa eijo.--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, Francois Schwicker <bubi4919@...> wrote:>>> --- Matthew Martin <matt@...> wrote:>>> >> > wan li kama nasa e ijo.... to make something absurd> > one become absurd something...>>> From the official word list : "nasa", as a transitive> verb, means : to drive crazy, to make weird>>>> > kin, mi sona ala nimi ni: "one" lon toki Inli, "on"> > lon toki Kanse>>> From the official word list, too : "jan" :> ...somebody, anybody ..., among other meanings>>>>________________________________________________________________________________\____> Be a better friend, newshound, and> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62s ... o8Wcj9tAcJ>

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