the words "en", "kin" and "kan"

Archives from the old Yahoo! group
Arĥivoj de la malnova Yahoo!-grupo
Sonja Elen Kisa

the words "en", "kin" and "kan"

Postby Sonja Elen Kisa » Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:25 pm


** Language Update from the Creator of Toki Pona **

The words "en", "kin", "kan" and the concept of "and" have been
relatively unstable and confusing in Toki Pona, as I have been
experimenting to find the best system.

-= Early Toki Pona =-

"en" divided between modifiers = and
jan pona en suli = good and tall person

There was no clear way to divide between head nouns. "en" needed to
be repeated to divide between multiple main nouns, which was clumsy
at times
en kon lete en suno = the north wind and the sun
(because "kon lete en suno" would have meant "cold and sunny air")

"kin" was added in front of any word for emphasis = also, indeed, even
kin mi pali = *I* work too

"kan" was a quasi-preposition verb meaning "with the company of"
mi kan sina = I am with you

-= Mid Toki Pona =-

"kin" became the way to divide head nouns. It still retained its
meaning as an emphasizer.
kon lete kin suno = the north wind and the sun
mi kin wile = I even want to
This addressed the need of an "and" word for in between head nouns,
but created syntactical confusion with the other meaning of "kin".

"en" and "kan" stayed the same.


-= Proposed New Toki Pona =-

"en" is now used to divide between head nouns.
kon lete en suno = the north wind an the sun

There is no longer a way to divide between modifiers. This is no
longer necessary. A "tall and good" person is simply a tall "good
person" or a good "tall person", as you will.
With a plural-intended meaning you can always use an expression
like "en ona":
mije pona en ona ije = good men and bad ones, good and bad men
Although repeating "mije" twice is probably more Tokiponish.
mije pona en mije ike
In this example there is clearly at least 2 men, at least 1 good and
1 bad.

"kan" no longer exists. "en" is used. (and = with)
mi en sina. = I am with you.
mi en mije li toki. = I talk with the man. Me and the man are
discussing.

This frees up "kin" to be used an as emphasis word to be added before
any word.

kin sina = you too
mi wile moku e kin waso = I want to eat chicken too, I even want to
eat chicken
(or: mi kin wile moku e waso)

Note that there is still a good way to divide head nouns by repeating
separating particles.
mi wile moku e kili e waso. = I want to eat vegetables and chicken.


I think this update will finally settle these details and many
unanswered questions. I am open to comments... What do you think?

-= Advanced Numbers =-

I am also considering getting rid of the so-called "advanced numbers"
like "luka luka luka tu tu wan". I have noticed that some speakers
are abusing them. Maybe it would be much better if they simply didn't
exist, preventing people from getting hung up on them. It's always
better to count with: wan, tu, mute. ;)

If this happened, I suppose it would sill be grammatical to say
something like "tu en tu en tu en tu en wan", making the need for
complex numbers even more ridiculous.

The intent of the complex numbers was just to give an option when
such precision is really necessary. In TP it is always better to
simplify thought.


yerricde

Re: the words "en", "kin" and "kan"

Postby yerricde » Sun Oct 27, 2002 6:32 pm


--- In tokipona@y..., "Sonja Elen Kisa"  wrote:
> -= Proposed New Toki Pona =-
>
> "en" is now used to divide between head nouns.

Should work, especially for those who come from a Germanic or
Arovën background. It moves away from Esperanto's practice of
using a harsh consonant in the word for "and", which turned me off.

> There is no longer a way to divide between modifiers. This is no
> longer necessary. A "tall and good" person is simply a tall "good
> person" or a good "tall person", as you will.

Which is how most languages do it anyway.

> mije pona en mije ike

That sounds good to my ears.

> "kan" no longer exists.

Good. The /k?n/ space was getting sort of crowded.

> "en" is used. (and = with)

'and == with' sort of reminds me of when I was studying American
Indian sign language several years ago.

> This frees up "kin" to be used an as emphasis word to be
> added before any word.

The idea of an emphasis word reminds me of Irish, which expresses
emphasis with a suffix. It also vaguely reminds me of English,
which has an emphasis word that starts with F.

> Note that there is still a good way to divide head nouns by
> repeating separating particles.
> mi wile moku e kili e waso. = I want to eat vegetables and chicken.
>
> I think this update will finally settle these details and many
> unanswered questions. I am open to comments... What do you think?

Good idea. Minor changes, especially changes that recognize what
speakers have done in practice, are fine as long as the lessons
get changed in parallel.

> -= Advanced Numbers =-
>
> I am also considering getting rid of the so-called "advanced
> numbers" like "luka luka luka tu tu wan". I have noticed that
> some speakers are abusing them.

By combining them with <pi> to attempt to create base-five
numerals? That may count as borderline abuse, but I see the
start of a sort of exploration that happens as speakers of
a pidgin gradually flesh out their language.

An interesting piece on how Indo-European numerals emerged:
http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:QHMeAb0cRT0J:indoeuro.bizland.com/arch=
ive/article12.html

> Maybe it would be much better if they simply didn't
> exist, preventing people from getting hung up on them.
> It's always better to count with: wan, tu, mute. ;)

I'd guess that the root of the "abuser" mindset is that
a concept of <mute pona> may not be precise enough for
communication other than in person.

On the other hand:
http://www.symbolism.org/writing/articles/internal/one-two/home.html

> If this happened, I suppose it would sill be grammatical to say
> something like "tu en tu en tu en tu en wan", making the need for
> complex numbers even more ridiculous.

No known literate society has numerals of length O(n).

> The intent of the complex numbers was just to give an option when
> such precision is really necessary.

Actually, the intent of the complex numbers was to have a valid
square root for -1 ;-)

> In TP it is always better to simplify thought.

I agree, but do you think getting rid of <luka>-concatenated
numerals will help toward that goal?

Thus, my position is AYE on the change to 'en' and NO on removal
of <luka>-concatenated numerals.

--
Damian



Return to “toki pini pi kulupu Jaku”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest