[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 590: sizeof(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 646: sizeof(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 1068: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 1068: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/phpbb/session.php on line 1068: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5129: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5129: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 5129: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3839)
Toki! - Page 15 - Toki Pona Forums

Toki!

Archives from the old Yahoo! group
Arĥivoj de la malnova Yahoo!-grupo
MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Toki!

Postby MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:34 pm

In a message dated 8/31/2007 5:35:07 PM Central Daylight Time, shadowfirebird@gmail.com writes:





(I'm not counting prepositions like "tawa" and conjugations like "taso", they're covered explicity by the rules.)




*Conjunctions* like "taso".  Other conjunctions are "en" and "anu", but as you already know, "e" and "li" can play the role of conjunction also.  

Toki Pona has no conjugations (verb changes for things like tense, person, number, mood, voice).



jan Setepo / stevo

MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Toki!

Postby MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:55 pm

In a message dated 8/31/2007 6:38:42 PM Central Daylight Time, clifford-j@sbcglobal.net writes:





(I'm

still not perfectly sure whether akesi lawa is the ruler of the toads or a toad this lives in my

head and eats my brains.  Since I am eating him, the latter seems fairer.)




Both interpretations are valid, I think.  Deciding which interpretation to use is where context and reasonableness come in.



jan Setepo / stevo

MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Toki!

Postby MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:57 pm

In a message dated 8/31/2007 7:18:20 PM Central Daylight Time, clifford-j@sbcglobal.net writes:





'god" is "jan sewi"




Or "ijo nasa", depending on your beliefs.



jan Setepo / stevo

matthewdeanmartin
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

RE: Toki!

Postby matthewdeanmartin » Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:44 am



Thanks for fixing my sentences. I keep
confusing word order and words that sound similar.


 


>"tan" is
"from" "tawa" is "for" 'god" is "jan
sewi" (part of a word cluster)


 


I’m a bit confused on tawa and
tan.  Tan in the tokipona.org word list included “because of”.  
I got confused with the prepositions--I mean I speak a language where we say, “Get
off on that exit” to mean to leave a highway!  So I made this chart:




    • Instrumental. kepeken ilo  -- with a tool – kepeken seme?
      How?

    • Locative. lon tomo -- at the room – lon seme? Where?

    • Proximative/Proximity.
      poka poki -- along side the box—poka seme? Next to what?

    • Similarity. sama suno -- like the sun – sama seme? Like what?

    • Causation. tan pali ona -- because of his efforts –
      tan seme? Why?

    • Allative/Dative/Indirect
      Object
      : tawa sina --
      to you, indirect object—tawa seme? Which way? To whom?

    • Accusative/Object: e tomo -- this is shown by position in English

    • Genative/Possessive: pi jan Pije – Pije’s – pi jan seme?
      Whose?

    • Vocative: o sina -- hey you! – o seme? Who’s there?

    • Nominative/Subject: tomo -- shown by position in English



Most of the prepositions for tan seem to have to do with
causation (
from, by, because of, since)


Tawa is mostly about direction. “to”,
Go to the house. “towards” Go towards the house, “for” Head
for the hills!, “until” Go until the stoplight.  “in order to” doesn’t follow the
pattern of direction.


I figured tan makes more sense in the following:


mi mute utala tan seme?  Mi utala tan
jan lawa.   Why do we fight? We fight for the king.


mi mute utala tawa seme? Mi utala tawa ma
pi jan ante.  To where do we fight? We take the fight to the foreign
lands.


 



jan Pije’s lessons say there are
drawbacks to using tawa to mean ‘for’ so why not use ‘tan’
which seems to have a stronger ability to answer tan seme (why).


 


jan Matthew Martin


 






From: tokipona@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:tokipona@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
John E Clifford

Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 8:18
PM

To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [tokipona] Toki!



 




--- matthewdeanmartin <matt@suburbandestiny.com>
wrote:



> Am I close in thinking that lists require bunch of particles as
separators?,

> eg.

>

I'm not sure anyone has thought about the grammar of lists, but supposing the
are just a

conjunction of things, then you would need the conjunction marker,
"en" or repeated "e"

>

> mi tawa e mani moku. mi jo kama kepeken
mani e telo, e sike walo, e ko suwi,

> e lawa kala. I'm going to the grocery store to buy water, eggs, honey and

> fish heads.

>

"I am going to food money (allowance?) I comingly have using money watter
and egg and honey and

fish heads.

Yes for the list but grocery store is something like "tomo moku". to
get is generally "kama jo"

prepositonal phrases come after objects (I'm not sure how firm that one is --
not that any of

these vocab items is fixed in concrete)

>

> mi mute li utala tan lawa tan ma tan jan suwi. We fight for the king, god

> and country. the commas maybe help but aren;t official and are used
sporadically.



"tan" is "from" "tawa" is "for"
'god" is "jan sewi" (part of a word cluster)l Here I worry that

rhese may modify one another, but I think prepositional phrases are all mean to
modify the

sentence as a whole, i.e, the main verb.

>

>

> mi en sina en ona mute li tawa kama musi.
You, me and all of them are going

> to the party.

"musi" alone might be enough for "pary;" what is "kama" meant to add? Specify that it is an

event, not just a free-floating pleasure?

>

>

> _____

>

> From: tokipona@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:tokipona@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf

> Of MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com

> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:27 AM

> To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: Re: [tokipona] Toki!

>

>

>

> In a message dated 8/31/2007 8:10:44 AM Central Daylight Time,

> akesi_palisa@yahoo.de
writes:

>

>

>

>

> Expressions consisting of two nouns are possible in tp, e.g. "lawa
ma"

> (ruler of the country) or "tenpo sike" (time of *the sun's*
cycle = year),

> "tomo telo" (water room, not wet room).

>

>

>

> But even in these examples, the two nouns are not a list. The second

> modifies the first. Thus "lawa ma" doesn't mean 'ruler,
country'; one of

> its meanings is 'ruler of the country'.

>

> jan Setepo / stevo

>






MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Toki!

Postby MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com » Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:12 am

In a message dated 9/1/2007 7:38:43 AM Central Daylight Time, philoglot@gmail.com writes:





"jan" pi lon ante li lon pilin jan li pali ike tawa jan ike lon tenpo

moli ona, la "jan" ni li ken anpa kin! :-)



jan Loliko

(o pona e toki mi)





mi sona ala e toki ona.  o toki e toki ona kepeken nimi ante.



literally:

"person" of at different is at feel person is do bad to person bad at time

dead he, ,then "person" this is can down also! :-)



person Loliko

(hey! good .. speak me)



less literally:

other+at "person" .. person+feeling+at and bad+make to bad+person at his+death+time, then this "person" .. can also down!



(fix my speech!)



jan Setepo / stevo

shadowfirebird@gmail.com
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Toki!

Postby shadowfirebird@gmail.com » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:17 am

>>>>

Yes. (and prepositions are another slot) Well, er, there are the questions of "pi" (where the two

or so words after it function as a single modifier to the word(s) before -- but within the pi slot

the rule applies again) and numbers (which add up and the sum is then a modifier) and maybe

"nanpa" plus a number (where the whole phrase is a modifier).
<<<<
Each of these is explicit in the lessons, so, fine.

>>>>
And, remember that where a new slot begins is not always clear: verbs with complements may have adverbs attached as may modals (which


take predicates) and so on, And that is before getting into fine details.
<<<<
Well, I guess that there has to be some contextual checking involved.  This is all brilliant, thank you.

I can see now that my real problem was simply not being careful enough about which word goes at the start of a slot, and I mistook early advice on this to be evidence of an undocumented "noun phrase" (if that's what you would call it).  Thanks to everyone again.


>>>>
(I'm still not perfectly sure whether akesi lawa is the ruler of the toads or a toad this lives in my

head and eats my brains. Since I am eating him, the latter seems fairer.)
<<<<
Would you mind if I reposted that on my tumblog?  I'm still laughing...

>>>>

ken la jan mute li lukin e ni. mi pilin pona tawa jan ni.
<<<<
I'm still trying to make my mind up whether this is evidence that TP is missing something, or evidence that TP corrects my thought processes.  Probably the latter.  "Maybe you are reading this. My good thoughts to people who are."  Well, if you aren't reading this ... then you aren't reading this. It seems I should just have said:


mi pilin pona tawa sina mute.



MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Toki!

Postby MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:36 am

In a message dated 9/1/2007 8:59:32 AM Central Daylight Time, philoglot@gmail.com writes:





jan sewi li lon, la jan anpa li lon kin. jan anpa li lon lawa pi jan

mute li pana e ike tawa jan lon tenpo pi moli ona.



tenpo ni la sina ken ala ken sona e toki mi? mi sitelen, la mi sona e

ni: pakala mute lili li ken lon. taso mi pilin ala e ni: pakala mute

li lon li kama e sitelen ike mute.



jan Loliko





mi pilin e ni: mi sona e toki sina.



jan Setepo / stevo

Rick Miller
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Toki!

Postby Rick Miller » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:51 am


On 9/1/07, MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> In a message dated 8/31/2007 7:18:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
clifford-j@sbcglobal.net writes:
> > 'god" is "jan sewi"
>
> Or "ijo nasa", depending on your beliefs.
>
> jan Setepo / stevo


a a a a! pona mute!
jan sewi li pona ala.


John E Clifford
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

RE: Toki!

Postby John E Clifford » Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:29 am


--- matthewdeanmartin <matt@suburbandestiny.com> wrote:

> Thanks for fixing my sentences. I keep confusing word order and words that
> sound similar.
>
>
>
> >"tan" is "from" "tawa" is "for" 'god" is "jan sewi" (part of a word
> cluster)
>
>
>
> I'm a bit confused on tawa and tan. Tan in the tokipona.org word list
> included "because of". I got confused with the prepositions--I mean I
> speak a language where we say, "Get off on that exit" to mean to leave a
> highway! So I made this chart:
>
> * Instrumental. kepeken ilo -- with a tool - kepeken seme? How?
> * Locative. lon tomo -- at the room - lon seme? Where?
> * Proximative/Proximity. poka poki -- along side the box-poka seme?
> Next to what?

I think that is "lon poka" "popka x" means "with (accompanying) x"

> * Similarity. sama suno -- like the sun - sama seme? Like what?
> * Causation. tan pali ona -- because of his efforts - tan seme? Why?
> * Allative/Dative/Indirect Object: tawa sina -- to you, indirect
> object-tawa seme? Which way? To whom?
> * Accusative/Object: e tomo -- this is shown by position in English
> * Genative/Possessive: pi jan Pije - Pije's - pi jan seme? Whose?
> * Vocative: o sina -- hey you! - o seme? Who's there?

"sina o" "o x" is imperative/hortative/etc - ordinarily verb moods

> * Nominative/Subject: tomo -- shown by position in English

And in tp too

> Most of the prepositions for tan seem to have to do with causation (from,
> by, because of, since)
But it is also literally (?) "from" - the start of a trip

> Tawa is mostly about direction. "to", Go to the house. "towards" Go towards
> the house, "for" Head for the hills!, "until" Go until the stoplight. "in
> order to" doesn't follow the pattern of direction.

There is a lot of English in the mix (though don't count on it a crucial points)

> I figured tan makes more sense in the following:
>
> mi mute utala tan seme? Mi utala tan jan lawa. Why do we fight? We fight
> for the king.
>
> mi mute utala tawa seme? Mi utala tawa ma pi jan ante. To where do we
> fight? We take the fight to the foreign lands.
>
Hmmmm. When you put it that way, ... But the idea of who you fight for is a
dative notion -
benefactive dative, I think we used to say, qui bono
>
> jan Pije's lessons say there are drawbacks to using tawa to mean 'for' so
> why not use 'tan' which seems to have a stronger ability to answer tan seme
> (why).

I suppose the king is in some sense the cause of our fighting, too, as maybe are
the other thingds
(God is a bit of a problem on that, but given some rhetoric around wears, you
could make that
case, too).


>
>
> jan Matthew Martin
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: tokipona@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tokipona@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of John E Clifford
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 8:18 PM
> To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [tokipona] Toki!
>
>
>
>
> --- matthewdeanmartin <matt@suburbandestin
> <mailto:matt%40suburbandestiny.com> y.com> wrote:
>
> > Am I close in thinking that lists require bunch of particles as
> separators?,
> > eg.
> >
> I'm not sure anyone has thought about the grammar of lists, but supposing
> the are just a
> conjunction of things, then you would need the conjunction marker, "en" or
> repeated "e"
> >
> > mi tawa e mani moku. mi jo kama kepeken mani e telo, e sike walo, e ko
> suwi,
> > e lawa kala. I'm going to the grocery store to buy water, eggs, honey and
> > fish heads.
> >
> "I am going to food money (allowance?) I comingly have using money watter
> and egg and honey and
> fish heads.
> Yes for the list but grocery store is something like "tomo moku". to get is
> generally "kama jo"
> prepositonal phrases come after objects (I'm not sure how firm that one is
> -- not that any of
> these vocab items is fixed in concrete)
> >
> > mi mute li utala tan lawa tan ma tan jan suwi. We fight for the king, god
> > and country. the commas maybe help but aren;t official and are used
> sporadically.
>
> "tan" is "from" "tawa" is "for" 'god" is "jan sewi" (part of a word
> cluster)l Here I worry that
> rhese may modify one another, but I think prepositional phrases are all mean
> to modify the
> sentence as a whole, i.e, the main verb.
> >
> >
> > mi en sina en ona mute li tawa kama musi. You, me and all of them are
> going
> > to the party.
> "musi" alone might be enough for "pary;" what is "kama" meant to add?
> Specify that it is an
> event, not just a free-floating pleasure?
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: tokipona@yahoogroup <mailto:tokipona%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
> [mailto:tokipona@yahoogroup <mailto:tokipona%40yahoogroups.com> s.com] On
> Behalf
> > Of MorphemeAddict@ <mailto:MorphemeAddict%40wmconnect.com> wmconnect.com
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:27 AM
> > To: tokipona@yahoogroup <mailto:tokipona%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
> > Subject: Re: [tokipona] Toki!
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/31/2007 8:10:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
> > akesi_palisa@ <mailto:akesi_palisa%40yahoo.de> yahoo.de writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Expressions consisting of two nouns are possible in tp, e.g. "lawa ma"
> > (ruler of the country) or "tenpo sike" (time of *the sun's* cycle = year),
> > "tomo telo" (water room, not wet room).
> >
> >
> >
> > But even in these examples, the two nouns are not a list. The second
> > modifies the first. Thus "lawa ma" doesn't mean 'ruler, country'; one of
> > its meanings is 'ruler of the country'.
> >
> > jan Setepo / stevo
> >
>
>
>
>


John E Clifford
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Toki!

Postby John E Clifford » Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:30 am


--- MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/31/2007 6:38:42 PM Central Daylight Time,
> clifford-j@sbcglobal.net writes:
>
>
> > (I'm
> > still not perfectly sure whether akesi lawa is the ruler of the toads or a
> > toad this lives in my
> > head and eats my brains. Since I am eating him, the latter seems fairer.)
> >
>
> Both interpretations are valid, I think. Deciding which interpretation to
> use is where context and reasonableness come in.
>

Just so; the problem is that with examples of this sort, there is no context.



[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1107: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “toki pini pi kulupu Jaku”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron