Toki!

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MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com

Re: Toki!

Post by MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com »

In a message dated 8/31/2007 5:35:07 PM Central Daylight Time, shadowfirebird@gmail.com writes:(I'm not counting prepositions like "tawa" and conjugations like "taso", they're covered explicity by the rules.) *Conjunctions* like "taso".  Other conjunctions are "en" and "anu", but as you already know, "e" and "li" can play the role of conjunction also.  Toki Pona has no conjugations (verb changes for things like tense, person, number, mood, voice).jan Setepo / stevo
MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com

Re: Toki!

Post by MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com »

In a message dated 8/31/2007 6:38:42 PM Central Daylight Time, clifford-j@sbcglobal.net writes:(I'mstill not perfectly sure whether akesi lawa is the ruler of the toads or a toad this lives in myhead and eats my brains.  Since I am eating him, the latter seems fairer.) Both interpretations are valid, I think.  Deciding which interpretation to use is where context and reasonableness come in.jan Setepo / stevo
MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com

Re: Toki!

Post by MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com »

In a message dated 8/31/2007 7:18:20 PM Central Daylight Time, clifford-j@sbcglobal.net writes:'god" is "jan sewi" Or "ijo nasa", depending on your beliefs.jan Setepo / stevo
matthewdeanmartin

RE: Toki!

Post by matthewdeanmartin »

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">Thanks for fixing my sentences. I keepconfusing word order and words that sound similar.10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;"> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">>"tan" is"from" "tawa" is "for" 'god" is "jansewi" (part of a word cluster)10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;"> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">I’m a bit confused on tawa andtan.  Tan in the tokipona.org word list included “because of”.  I got confused with the prepositions--I mean I speak a language where we say, “Getoff on that exit” to mean to leave a highway!  So I made this chart:Instrumental"Trebuchet MS";">. kepeken ilo  -- with a tool – kepeken seme?How?Locative"Trebuchet MS";">. lon tomo -- at the room – lon seme? Where?Proximative/"Trebuchet MS";">Proximity.poka poki -- along side the box—poka seme? Next to what?Similarity"Trebuchet MS";">. sama suno -- like the sun – sama seme? Like what?Causation"Trebuchet MS";">. tan pali ona -- because of his efforts –tan seme? Why?Allative/Dative/IndirectObject: tawa sina --to you, indirect object—tawa seme? Which way? To whom?Accusative/Object"Trebuchet MS";">: e tomo -- this is shown by position in English Genative/Possessive"Trebuchet MS";">: pi jan Pije – Pije’s – pi jan seme?Whose?Vocative"Trebuchet MS";">: o sina -- hey you! – o seme? Who’s there?Nominative/Subject"Trebuchet MS";">: tomo -- shown by position in EnglishMost of the prepositions for tan seem to have to do withcausation (from, by, because of, since) Tawa is mostly about direction. “to”,Go to the house. “towards” Go towards the house, “for” Headfor the hills!, “until” Go until the stoplight.  “in order to” doesn’t follow thepattern of direction.I figured tan makes more sense in the following:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">mi mute utala tan seme?  Mi utala tanjan lawa.   Why do we fight? We fight for the king.10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">mi mute utala tawa seme? Mi utala tawa mapi jan ante.  To where do we fight? We take the fight to the foreignlands.10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;"> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">jan Pije’s lessons say there aredrawbacks to using tawa to mean ‘for’ so why not use ‘tan’which seems to have a stronger ability to answer tan seme (why).10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;"> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">jan Matthew Martin10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;"> From: tokipona@yahoogroups.com[mailto:tokipona@yahoogroups.com] On BehalfOf John E CliffordSent: Friday, August 31, 2007 8:18PMTo: tokipona@yahoogroups.comSubject: RE: [tokipona] Toki!12.0pt;"> 12.0pt;">--- matthewdeanmartin <matt@suburbandestiny.com>wrote:> Am I close in thinking that lists require bunch of particles asseparators?,> eg.> I'm not sure anyone has thought about the grammar of lists, but supposing theare just aconjunction of things, then you would need the conjunction marker,"en" or repeated "e" > > mi tawa e mani moku. mi jo kama kepekenmani e telo, e sike walo, e ko suwi,> e lawa kala. I'm going to the grocery store to buy water, eggs, honey and> fish heads.> "I am going to food money (allowance?) I comingly have using money watterand egg and honey andfish heads.Yes for the list but grocery store is something like "tomo moku". toget is generally "kama jo"prepositonal phrases come after objects (I'm not sure how firm that one is --not that any ofthese vocab items is fixed in concrete)> > mi mute li utala tan lawa tan ma tan jan suwi. We fight for the king, god> and country. the commas maybe help but aren;t official and are usedsporadically."tan" is "from" "tawa" is "for"'god" is "jan sewi" (part of a word cluster)l Here I worry thatrhese may modify one another, but I think prepositional phrases are all mean tomodify thesentence as a whole, i.e, the main verb.> > > mi en sina en ona mute li tawa kama musi.You, me and all of them are going> to the party."musi" alone might be enough for "pary;" what is "kama" meant to add? Specify that it is anevent, not just a free-floating pleasure?> > > _____ > > From: tokipona@yahoogroups.com[mailto:tokipona@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf> Of MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:27 AM> To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [tokipona] Toki!> > > > In a message dated 8/31/2007 8:10:44 AM Central Daylight Time,> akesi_palisa@yahoo.dewrites: > > > > > Expressions consisting of two nouns are possible in tp, e.g. "lawama"> (ruler of the country) or "tenpo sike" (time of *the sun's*cycle = year),> "tomo telo" (water room, not wet room). > > > > But even in these examples, the two nouns are not a list. The second> modifies the first. Thus "lawa ma" doesn't mean 'ruler,country'; one of> its meanings is 'ruler of the country'. > > jan Setepo / stevo >
MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com

Re: Toki!

Post by MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com »

In a message dated 9/1/2007 7:38:43 AM Central Daylight Time, philoglot@gmail.com writes:"jan" pi lon ante li lon pilin jan li pali ike tawa jan ike lon tenpomoli ona, la "jan" ni li ken anpa kin! :-)jan Loliko(o pona e toki mi)mi sona ala e toki ona.  o toki e toki ona kepeken nimi ante.literally:"person" of at different is at feel person is do bad to person bad at timedead he, ,then "person" this is can down also! :-)person Loliko(hey! good .. speak me)less literally:other+at "person" .. person+feeling+at and bad+make to bad+person at his+death+time, then this "person" .. can also down!(fix my speech!)jan Setepo / stevo
shadowfirebird@gmail.com

Re: Toki!

Post by shadowfirebird@gmail.com »

>>>>Yes. (and prepositions are another slot) Well, er, there are the questions of "pi" (where the twoor so words after it function as a single modifier to the word(s) before -- but within the pi slotthe rule applies again) and numbers (which add up and the sum is then a modifier) and maybe"nanpa" plus a number (where the whole phrase is a modifier). <<<<Each of these is explicit in the lessons, so, fine. >>>>And, remember that where a new slot begins is not always clear: verbs with complements may have adverbs attached as may modals (whichtake predicates) and so on, And that is before getting into fine details.<<<<Well, I guess that there has to be some contextual checking involved.  This is all brilliant, thank you.I can see now that my real problem was simply not being careful enough about which word goes at the start of a slot, and I mistook early advice on this to be evidence of an undocumented "noun phrase" (if that's what you would call it).  Thanks to everyone again. >>>>(I'm still not perfectly sure whether akesi lawa is the ruler of the toads or a toad this lives in myhead and eats my brains. Since I am eating him, the latter seems fairer.) <<<<Would you mind if I reposted that on my tumblog?  I'm still laughing...>>>>ken la jan mute li lukin e ni. mi pilin pona tawa jan ni. <<<<I'm still trying to make my mind up whether this is evidence that TP is missing something, or evidence that TP corrects my thought processes.  Probably the latter.  "Maybe you are reading this. My good thoughts to people who are."  Well, if you aren't reading this ... then you aren't reading this. It seems I should just have said:mi pilin pona tawa sina mute.
MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com

Re: Toki!

Post by MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com »

In a message dated 9/1/2007 8:59:32 AM Central Daylight Time, philoglot@gmail.com writes:jan sewi li lon, la jan anpa li lon kin. jan anpa li lon lawa pi janmute li pana e ike tawa jan lon tenpo pi moli ona.tenpo ni la sina ken ala ken sona e toki mi? mi sitelen, la mi sona eni: pakala mute lili li ken lon. taso mi pilin ala e ni: pakala muteli lon li kama e sitelen ike mute.jan Lolikomi pilin e ni: mi sona e toki sina.jan Setepo / stevo
Rick Miller

Re: Toki!

Post by Rick Miller »

On 9/1/07, MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com> wrote:> In a message dated 8/31/2007 7:18:20 PM Central Daylight Time,clifford-j@sbcglobal.net writes:> > 'god" is "jan sewi">> Or "ijo nasa", depending on your beliefs.>> jan Setepo / stevoa a a a! pona mute!jan sewi li pona ala.
John E Clifford

RE: Toki!

Post by John E Clifford »

--- matthewdeanmartin <matt@suburbandestiny.com> wrote:> Thanks for fixing my sentences. I keep confusing word order and words that> sound similar.>>>> >"tan" is "from" "tawa" is "for" 'god" is "jan sewi" (part of a word> cluster)>>>> I'm a bit confused on tawa and tan. Tan in the tokipona.org word list> included "because of". I got confused with the prepositions--I mean I> speak a language where we say, "Get off on that exit" to mean to leave a> highway! So I made this chart:>> * Instrumental. kepeken ilo -- with a tool - kepeken seme? How?> * Locative. lon tomo -- at the room - lon seme? Where?> * Proximative/Proximity. poka poki -- along side the box-poka seme?> Next to what?I think that is "lon poka" "popka x" means "with (accompanying) x"> * Similarity. sama suno -- like the sun - sama seme? Like what?> * Causation. tan pali ona -- because of his efforts - tan seme? Why?> * Allative/Dative/Indirect Object: tawa sina -- to you, indirect> object-tawa seme? Which way? To whom?> * Accusative/Object: e tomo -- this is shown by position in English> * Genative/Possessive: pi jan Pije - Pije's - pi jan seme? Whose?> * Vocative: o sina -- hey you! - o seme? Who's there?"sina o" "o x" is imperative/hortative/etc - ordinarily verb moods> * Nominative/Subject: tomo -- shown by position in EnglishAnd in tp too> Most of the prepositions for tan seem to have to do with causation (from,> by, because of, since) But it is also literally (?) "from" - the start of a trip> Tawa is mostly about direction. "to", Go to the house. "towards" Go towards> the house, "for" Head for the hills!, "until" Go until the stoplight. "in> order to" doesn't follow the pattern of direction.There is a lot of English in the mix (though don't count on it a crucial points)> I figured tan makes more sense in the following:>> mi mute utala tan seme? Mi utala tan jan lawa. Why do we fight? We fight> for the king.>> mi mute utala tawa seme? Mi utala tawa ma pi jan ante. To where do we> fight? We take the fight to the foreign lands.>Hmmmm. When you put it that way, ... But the idea of who you fight for is adative notion -benefactive dative, I think we used to say, qui bono>> jan Pije's lessons say there are drawbacks to using tawa to mean 'for' so> why not use 'tan' which seems to have a stronger ability to answer tan seme> (why).I suppose the king is in some sense the cause of our fighting, too, as maybe arethe other thingds(God is a bit of a problem on that, but given some rhetoric around wears, youcould make thatcase, too).>>> jan Matthew Martin>>>> _____>> From: tokipona@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tokipona@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf> Of John E Clifford> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 8:18 PM> To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [tokipona] Toki!>>>>> --- matthewdeanmartin <matt@suburbandestin> <mailto:matt%40suburbandestiny.com> y.com> wrote:>> > Am I close in thinking that lists require bunch of particles as> separators?,> > eg.> >> I'm not sure anyone has thought about the grammar of lists, but supposing> the are just a> conjunction of things, then you would need the conjunction marker, "en" or> repeated "e"> >> > mi tawa e mani moku. mi jo kama kepeken mani e telo, e sike walo, e ko> suwi,> > e lawa kala. I'm going to the grocery store to buy water, eggs, honey and> > fish heads.> >> "I am going to food money (allowance?) I comingly have using money watter> and egg and honey and> fish heads.> Yes for the list but grocery store is something like "tomo moku". to get is> generally "kama jo"> prepositonal phrases come after objects (I'm not sure how firm that one is> -- not that any of> these vocab items is fixed in concrete)> >> > mi mute li utala tan lawa tan ma tan jan suwi. We fight for the king, god> > and country. the commas maybe help but aren;t official and are used> sporadically.>> "tan" is "from" "tawa" is "for" 'god" is "jan sewi" (part of a word> cluster)l Here I worry that> rhese may modify one another, but I think prepositional phrases are all mean> to modify the> sentence as a whole, i.e, the main verb.> >> >> > mi en sina en ona mute li tawa kama musi. You, me and all of them are> going> > to the party.> "musi" alone might be enough for "pary;" what is "kama" meant to add?> Specify that it is an> event, not just a free-floating pleasure?> >> >> > _____> >> > From: tokipona@yahoogroup <mailto:tokipona%40yahoogroups.com> s.com> [mailto:tokipona@yahoogroup <mailto:tokipona%40yahoogroups.com> s.com] On> Behalf> > Of MorphemeAddict@ <mailto:MorphemeAddict%40wmconnect.com> wmconnect.com> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:27 AM> > To: tokipona@yahoogroup <mailto:tokipona%40yahoogroups.com> s.com> > Subject: Re: [tokipona] Toki!> >> >> >> > In a message dated 8/31/2007 8:10:44 AM Central Daylight Time,> > akesi_palisa@ <mailto:akesi_palisa%40yahoo.de> yahoo.de writes:> >> >> >> >> > Expressions consisting of two nouns are possible in tp, e.g. "lawa ma"> > (ruler of the country) or "tenpo sike" (time of *the sun's* cycle = year),> > "tomo telo" (water room, not wet room).> >> >> >> > But even in these examples, the two nouns are not a list. The second> > modifies the first. Thus "lawa ma" doesn't mean 'ruler, country'; one of> > its meanings is 'ruler of the country'.> >> > jan Setepo / stevo> >>>>>
John E Clifford

Re: Toki!

Post by John E Clifford »

--- MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote:> In a message dated 8/31/2007 6:38:42 PM Central Daylight Time,> clifford-j@sbcglobal.net writes:>>> > (I'm> > still not perfectly sure whether akesi lawa is the ruler of the toads or a> > toad this lives in my> > head and eats my brains. Since I am eating him, the latter seems fairer.)> >>> Both interpretations are valid, I think. Deciding which interpretation to> use is where context and reasonableness come in.>Just so; the problem is that with examples of this sort, there is no context.
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