From: daraffa <email@example.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:57:01 AM
Subject: [tokipona] Re: Dave's writing exercises #4
[I am still at the stage where I have to translate everything out on paper, so
my translations are in brackets below]
My comments or questions come after the bracketed text.
--- In tokipona@yahoogroup s.com, John E Clifford <kali9putra@ ...> wrote:
> tenpo pini lili la mama mije pi meli mi li moli.
> *ken la sina wile e kulupu 'ona li kama moli.' kulupu 'tenpo pini mute la ona
li moli ala' li lon poka wan. kulupu 'tenpo ni la ona li moli' li lon poka ante.
[maybe you want the phrase 'he became dead'. The phrase 'much time ago he did
not die' is one side. The phrase 'this time he died' is another side. ]
So to indicate that someone has died, I should use 'kama moli'?
*I take 'moli' to mean "dead," not primarily "die"
> nimi ona li jan Wapa.
> *'ona li jan Wapa' anu ' nimi ona li nimi 'Wapa.' nimi li jan ala. nimi
'Wapa' li sona e seme kepeken toki Inli.
['he is Bob' or 'his name is the word"Bob"'. The name is not the person. The
word 'Bob' is what using English.]
I translated Bob or Robert as Wapa in tp. Is this ok?
*OK; I can see what, say 'Papi' might not work as well.
I believe one translation of 'sona e' is 'to know how to'. I wasn't sure how to
translate it in your comment above.
> ijo insa ona pi tawa telo loje li pini. tomo tawa li tawa e jan Wapa tawa tomo
pi pona sijelo.
> *anu 'tomo tawa li tawa tomo pi pona sijelo e jan Wapa'
[or 'the car moved Bob to the hospital']
So putting the location (hospital) immediately after the word tawa is better
because then I don't have to use tawa again later? I remember reading somewhere
that tawa tawa is absorbed into a single tawa.
*Well, 'tawa' (and 'lon' and maybe a few others) can take the location directly
after as a sort of right grouped modifier. If the grammar patteris followeed
oyther wise, there would not be a 'tawa tawa', since 'e jan Wapa' intervenes.
> jan pi sijelo sona li wile open e ijo pi tawa telo loje.
> *jan ni li jo ala e sijelo sona. tenpo mute la sijelo li sona ala. tan ni la
sina wile kulupu 'jan pi sona (anu pona) sijelo'
[this person does not have body knowledge.
*more like 'knowing body' or 'wise body'
Many times the body knows nothing. Because of this, you want the phrase 'man of
knowledge of the body' (or knowledge of fixing the body).]
I understand what you are saying here. I have to be careful of the order of
adjectives and the words they modify.
> taso ijo ona li open ala. kulupu mama mi li tawa tomo pi pona sijelo.
> jan pi sijelo sona li toki e nimi ike tawa mi mute. ona li toki E ni: jan Wapa
> *sin la. kin la sina wile e nimi 'e.'
[sin la? maybe you want the word 'e']
*No, it marks another occurrence of 'sijelo sona'
Yes, I forgot the object separator 'e'.
What does the idiom 'sin la' mean?
*Paradoxically, it seems it could mean "Yet again" or "To start afresh" -- I
meant the former.
> mi mute li pilin ike. mi mute li pana e oko
> *'telo oko' lon la oko li telo. taso ona li pana e oko.
[If there is 'eye water', then the eye waters. But it gives the eye.]
I see my order of adjective and noun was backwards again. We gave water of/from
the eyes - we cried.
> tenpo lili la mi mute li awen poka sijelo pi jan Wapa.
> *mi sona ala. taso mi filin e ni: sina wile kepeken e kulupu 'lon poka.'
[I don't know. But I think this: you wish to use the phrase 'at the side'.]
I see now that the verb 'awen' just means we remained but it doesn't give the
location; so I need to use 'lon poka' to indicate 'at the side' of Bob.
*Well, 'poka' alone means "with," I think, but 'awen' is pretty certainly not
like 'tawa' as far as location goes.
> meli pi jan Wapa li weka e sike wan tan luka pi jan Wapa.
> *pakala! mi sona ala e kulupu ni. kulupu Inli 'His wife hugged him' li lon al
lon. anu kulupu 'She took a ring from his hand'
[I do not understand this phrase. Is it the English phrase 'His wife hugged
him'? Or the phrase 'She took a ring from his hand']
I was trying to say that she 'removed the wedding ring from his hand'. I threw
in 'wan' to indicate a 'uniting' ring.
*Very nice -- I missed that point completely (it's hard to re,meber the numbers
are verbs too).
> mi toki e jan lili tu mi.
> *jan lili li nimi ala. tan ni la sina ken ala toki e ona. sina wile kulupu
'toki tawa jan lili mi'
['jan lili' is the wrong word.
*Oy, yoy yoy! This words and thing confusion always comes up and I always get
myself tangled in it. You have moved from talk about kids to talk about words
by adding the quotes, but the point was just that kids are not words (nimi ala
-- not ike or so)
This is why you cannot talk them. You want the phrase 'speak to my children'.]
I understand. I speak words. I cannot speak children. I speak TO the children.
*Yes, 'toki tawa jan lili mi'
> ona li pana e oko telo.
> *'telo oko'
Same mistake as I made above.
> mi sike e ona.
> *mi sona ala. taso mi filin e ni: toki sina li lon. a! kulupu ni li nimi Inli
[I do not understand. But I think this: your talk is this. This phrase is the
English word 'hug'.]
Yes, I was trying to say 'I hugged them' or 'I circled them'. Is this ok?
*Yes indeed, it just took a minute (although, I suspect that strictly transitive
'sike' should mean, "formed into a circle" not "encircle" -- and I don't know
how to finish it off in that case).
> mi mute li pali e sona tawa lukin sijelo.
> *lon ni la nimi 'sona' li seme. ken la 'kulupu'
[here the word 'knowledge' is what? Maybe group?]
I was trying to say we made 'plans' for the wake / viewing. Can I use 'sona' for
*I think 'nasin' is probably better, but I don't have any clear cases. (Oops,
the dictiionary does say 'sona' and dopesn't mention 'nasin'. My bad!)
> meli pi jan Wapa li wile e poki sijelo. jan li telo e sijelo. jan li pana e
sijelo lon poki sijelo.
> *ken la 'li lon poki sijelo e sijelo' nimi 'pana' li pona ala tawa mi
[maybe 'in the casket the body' the word 'put' is not good to me. ]
I was trying to say the 'undertaker put the body into the casket'. I couldn't
think of a word for 'undertaker' so I used 'jan' for person.
Is it true that the prepositional phrase usually comes after the direct object?
Or should the PP come directly after the verb?
*'lon' works like 'tawa:' it's a preposition tha thappens to be in verb place,
but takes its object with it when it moves. I now suspect that 'insa' would be
> kulupu mama mute en jan pona mute li kama tawa lukin sijelo. ona mute li pana
e kasi kule mute. ona mute li pilin ike. jan li open ala e poki sijelo. mi mute
li pana e oko telo.
> *sin la.
> kulupu mama en jan pona li kama kulupu lon tomo sewi. jan luka en mi li tawa e
poki sijelo lon tomo sewi.
> *'tawa tomo sewi e poki sijelo'
[ 'moved the casket to the church']
So I was correct in thinking that tawa in this sentence is a transitive verb
which takes casket as a direct object? But I don't need the extra 'lon' for 'at'
the church because the tawa takes care of this? I'm confused.
*Welcome to tp! Incidentally, 'tawa e poki sijelo lon tomo sewi' means
something like "moved the coffin around and about in the church" -- 'lon' is the
location of the action not the place toward which it moves.
> mi mute li kute e kalama musi pona. jan sewi lili li toki e nimi pona sike jan
> *kulupu 'jan sewi' li pakala' ona li sona e ijo tu. tan ni la toki sina li
pona. taso mi sona ala e ni: kulupu 'toki sike' li lon tawa kulupu Inli 'talk
[The phrase 'jan sewi' is a mistake. It means 2 things. This is why your
communication is good. But I do not know this: the phrase 'toki sike' is the
English phrase 'talk about']
Yes, I was trying to say 'the minister spoke good words about Bob.'
*Yes, that is still not officaila (and I don't like it much, since it is a loan
trandslation from English -- but then, so are a lot of other things in tp).
> ona toki ni: moli ala li lon kon sewi.
> *jan sewi lili sona ala sona e ni: jan Wanpi en jan Sonpi li lon kon sewi. mi
pilin e ni: sina wile e kulupu 'ona li moli ala. ona li lon kon sewi.'
[Does the priest know about this: person Wanpi and person Sonpi are in the
heavens? I think this: you want the group 'he is not dead. he is in heaven.']
Wanpi and Sonpi ??
*Vampires and Zombies, i.e. the moli ala, undead.
I was trying to say 'there is no death in heaven' but I could break it up into 2
sentences as you suggested.
*The two are close to what you mean, probably, but not quite the same. The
problem is that the simple 'moli li lon ala kon sewi' might just as well mean
that this dead one here is not in Heaven. Maybe 'ala li moli lon kon sewi'?
> jan mute li toki tawa jan sewi. tomo tawa li tawa e poki sijelo tawa ma moli.
kulupu mama li toki ni: tawa pona. o lape lon ali li pona. jan li anpa e poki
sijelo lon anpa ma.
> *mi sona ala. mi pilin e ni: kulupu ni li lon ala. taso mi ken ala toki e
nimi tan pi pilin ni.
[I don't know. I think this: this group does not exist
. But I cannot speak the word from thinking this.]
*"But I can't say (find, think of) the basic reason for this feeling ('nimi' is
probably wrong here - maybe 'sona.' but that doesn't feel quite right either.)
I was trying to say 'sleep in peace' - sleep in all that is good.
*Aha! 'o lape lon ali pona' (or maybe 'pona ali'); you cant have a 'li' there or
it becomes a conjoint verb phrase "sleep in all and be good"
> jan mute li tawa tomo mi. ona mute li moku e moku e telo nasa. jan li toki e
tenpo pini sike jan Wapa.
> *pakala 'sike' sin. sina ken ala ken toki e tenpo. tenpo li nimi ala.
[Messed up 'sike' again. You cannot speak time. Time is not a word]
"Damn! 'sike' again!" (see earlier)
Yes, I see now, people can't speak time. I was trying to say 'the people spoke
about past times with Bob'.
Maybe I should have written 'jan li toki sike tenpo pini poka jan Wapa' ?
* Well, still, depending upon whether 'sike' is right.
> moli li ala.
> mi tawa tomo poka.
> *ken la sina en e nimi 'taso'
[Maybe you want the word 'taso' - 'but']
*"add the word 'only'"
> tenpo pini la seme mi mute li lon. mi mute li lon kin.
> *I gotta do this in English. 'Whatever' is not 'seme' which just asks a
question, whereas 'whatever' is a generalization. I want to say "We were many
things to one another and we are those things still" but 'one another' stops me.
I guess, "I was many things to you and you were many things to me and we still
are." Of course, "be many things to" is no snap either.
I guess I should stick to simpler topics! <grin>
*Hey, it is the tough questions that help the language fill out (or fill in the
> o toki e mi kepeken nimi mi. o toki pona pali e mi. sama tenpo pini la o pana
e kon pi pilin pona.
> *'toki tawa mi' "nimi mi sina'? sin la 'toki... tawa'. o en e kulupu sama
'tan toki musi lili'
*probably also 'sama pi tenpo pini'
> o musi. o pali e sinpin pona. o pilin e mi. o toki tawa jan sewi sike mi.
> *nimi 'pilin' li sama nimi 'toki' mi nimi ala li pilin ala. taso nimi 'sike'
> o toki e nimi mi lon tomo. o toki PI? pona pali e nimi mi.
> ali li lon sama. ali li awen. ala li tu.
> sina lukin ala e mi. o awen e mi lon lawa sina.
> tenpo lili la mi awen tawa sina. mi lon poka.
> ali li pona. ala li lon tenpo pini. ala li weka.
> tenpo kama la ali li pona mute.
> *mi pilin ike tan ni: nimi kule ali li lon ala.
> tenpo kama la mi mute li lon poka jan sewi.
> *I like this summary. Source?
My cousin is a permanent deacon in the catholic church. He gave me the poem 7 or
8 years ago. I don't know who wrote it originally.
Thanks for your comments and suggestions.
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