Dave''s writing exercises #4

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daraffa

Dave''s writing exercises #4

Postby daraffa » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:03 pm


The following poem has always spoken to me in times of loss. I have tried to
translate it into tp. Your comments and corrections are welcome. I am still
unsure of when and when not to use the object separator 'e'. I know it is not
used after lon or tawa (unless I am moving a rock or some object).
Thanks,
Dave

moli li ala.
mi tawa tomo poka.
tenpo pini la seme mi mute li lon. mi mute li lon kin.
o toki e mi kepeken nimi mi. o toki pona pali e mi. sama tenpo pini la o pana e
kon pi pilin pona.
o musi. o pali e sinpin pona. o pilin e mi. o toki tawa jan sewi sike mi.
o toki e nimi mi lon tomo. o toki pona pali e nimi mi.
ali li lon sama. ali li awen. ala li tu.
sina lukin ala e mi. o awen e mi lon lawa sina.
tenpo lili la mi awen tawa sina. mi lon poka.
ali li pona. ala li lon tenpo pini. ala li weka.
tenpo kama la ali li pona mute.
tenpo kama la mi mute li lon poka jan sewi.


Death is nothing at all
I have only slipped away into the next room.
Whatever we were to each other, that we are still.
Call me by my own familiar name. Speak to me in the easy way which you always
used. Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes we enjoyed together.
Play, smile, think of me, pray for me.
Let my name be the household word that it always was. Let it be spoken without
effort.
Life means all that it ever meant, it is the same as it ever was; there is
absolutely unbroken continuity.
Why should I be out of your mind because I am out of your sight?
I am but waiting for you, for an interval, somewhere very near just around the
corner.
All is well. Nothing is past, nothing is lost.
One brief moment and all will be as it was before – only better, infinitely
happier and forever.
We will all be one together with God.


Zakirov Salikh

Re: Dave''s writing exercises #4

Postby Zakirov Salikh » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:34 am


Hi, Dave!

I have tried to translate your toki pona poem translation back to
English *before* looking at the English original.
Sorry if my toki pona competency is not high enough to get to the
hidden meaning, but I hope you find it helpful.

> moli li ala.
Death is nothing.

> mi tawa tomo poka.
I go to the near building (room?).

> tenpo pini la seme mi mute li lon.
In the past, what mine (multiple my things) were.
(* This feels a little bit ungrammatic, as there is no question.
Or where you intending "what of us" or something like that? *)

> mi mute li lon kin.
We exist indeed.

> o toki e mi kepeken nimi mi.
Please talk to me my name.
(* I think you were trying to say "please call me by my name",
and if that's true, "o nimi e mi kepeken nimi mi" seems a bit better *)

> o toki pona pali e mi.
Report to me.
(* or is that something like "recite to me"? *)

> sama tenpo pini la o pana e kon pi pilin pona.
In the moment of past, give me an air of good feeling!

> o musi. o pali e sinpin pona.
Enjoy yourself! Make a good face.

> o pilin e mi.
Feel me! (* or "Think of me!" ?*)

> o toki tawa jan sewi sike mi.
Talk to my round god!
(* Sorry, I could not get what "round god" means *)

> o toki e nimi mi lon tomo.
Please tell my name in the house.

> o toki pona pali e nimi mi.
Please recite my name.

> ali li lon sama. ali li awen. ala li tu.
Everything is the same. Everything stays. Nothing splits.
(* Or was that "nothing changes" intended? In that case, how about
"ala li kama ante"? *)

> sina lukin ala e mi. o awen e mi lon lawa sina.
You don't look at me. Please remember me.

> tenpo lili la mi awen tawa sina.
(* or is that "I will prevent you from moving" i.e. "I will
bind/stop/set at rest you"?
If so, how about "mi awen e tawa sina" or "mi awen tawa e sina"?
Anyway, it is entirely unclear to me if it is reasonable to use "tawa"
as modifier in places where it looks like a preposition and require
reader to deduce from context.
"e" is binding stronger than "tawa", so using "e" would resolve the
parsing ambiguity *)

> mi lon poka.
I am near.

> ali li pona. ala li lon tenpo pini. ala li weka.
Everything is okay. Nothing is in the past. Nothing will leave.

> tenpo kama la ali li pona mute.
Everything will get much better.

> tenpo kama la mi mute li lon poka jan sewi.
We all will come to god.

-----
Now that I have completed line by line translation, I will try to
rephrase the whole passage as far as my understanding permits.


Death is nothing.
I go to the nearby building.
In the past, I had many things. We existed indeed.
Please call me by my name. Recite to me.
In the moment of past, give me an air of good feeling!
Enjoy yourself! Smile! Think about me! Talk to my round god!
Please tell my name in the house. Please recite my name.
Everything is the same. Everything stays. Nothing splits.
You don't look at me. Please remember me.
Soon I will put you to rest. I am near.
Everything is okay. Nothing is in the past. Nothing will leave.
Everything will get much better.
We all will come to god.

----
Now comes the moment for me to look at the English original
and enjoy a rare moment of comprehension :)

Wow! At least I was close with "pray" :)
Thank for the interesting translation!
Salikh.


John E Clifford

Re: Dave''s writing exercises #4

Postby John E Clifford » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:56 am


tenpo pini lili la mama mije pi meli mi li moli.

*ken la sina wile e kulupu 'ona li kama moli.' kulupu 'tenpo pini mute la ona
li moli ala' li lon poka wan. kulupu 'tenpo ni la ona li moli' li lon poka ante.

nimi ona li jan Wapa.

*'ona li jan Wapa' anu ' nimi ona li nimi 'Wapa.' nimi li jan ala. nimi 'Wapa'
li sona e seme kepeken toki Inli.

ijo insa ona pi tawa telo loje li pini. tomo tawa li tawa e jan Wapa tawa tomo
pi pona sijelo.

*anu 'tomo tawa li tawa tomo pi pona sijelo e jan Wapa'

jan pi sijelo sona li wile open e ijo pi tawa telo loje.

*jan ni li jo ala e sijelo sona. tenp mute la sijelo li sona ala. tan i la
sina wile kulupu 'jan pi sona (anu pona) sijelo'

taso ijo ona li open ala. kulupu mama mi li tawa tomo pi pona sijelo.
jan pi sijelo sona li toki e nimi ike tawa mi mute. ona li toki E ni: jan Wapa
li moli.

*sin la. kin la sina wile e nimi 'e.'

mi mute li pilin ike. mi mute li pana e oko
telo.

*'telo oko' lon la oko li telo. taso ona li pana e oko.

tenpo lili la mi mute li awen poka sijelo pi jan Wapa.

*mi sona ala. taso mi filin e ni: sina wile kepeken e kulupu 'lon poka.'

meli pi jan Wapa li weka e sike wan tan luka pi jan Wapa.

*pakala! mi sona ala e kulupu ni. kulupu Inli 'His wife hugged him' li lon al
lon. anu kulupu 'She took a ring from his hand'

mi toki e jan lili tu mi.

*jan lili li nimi ala. tan ni la sina ken ala toki e ona. sina wile kulupu
'toki tawa jan lili mi'

ona li pana e oko telo.

*'telo oko'

mi sike e ona.

*mi sona ala. taso mi filin e ni: toki sina li lon. a! kulupu ni li nimi Inli
'hug'

mi mute li pali e sona tawa lukin sijelo.

*lon ni la nimi 'sona' li seme. ken la 'kulupu'

meli pi jan Wapa li wile e poki sijelo. jan li telo e sijelo. jan li pana e
sijelo lon poki sijelo.

*ken la 'li lon poki sijelo e sijelo' nimi 'pana' li pona ala tawa mi

kulupu mama mute en jan pona mute li kama tawa lukin sijelo. ona mute li pana e
kasi kule mute. ona mute li pilin ike. jan li open ala e poki sijelo. mi mute li
pana e oko telo.

*sin la.

kulupu mama en jan pona li kama kulupu lon tomo sewi. jan luka en mi li tawa e
poki sijelo lon tomo sewi.

*'tawa tomo sewi e poki sijelo'

mi mute li kute e kalama musi pona. jan sewi lili li toki e nimi pona sike jan
Wapa.

*kulupu 'jan sewi' li pakala' ona li sona e ijo tu. tan ni la toki sina li
pona. taso mi sona ala e ni: kulupu 'toki sike' li lon tawa kulupu Inli 'talk
about.'

ona toki ni: moli ala li lon kon sewi.

*jan sewi lili sona ala sona e ni: jan Wanpi en jan Sonpi li lon kon sewi. mi
pilin e ni: sina wile e kulupu 'ona li moli ala. ona li lon kon sewi.'

jan mute li toki tawa jan sewi. tomo tawa li tawa e poki sijelo tawa ma moli.
kulupu mama li toki ni: tawa pona. o lape lon ali li pona. jan li anpa e poki
sijelo lon anpa ma.

*mi sona ala. mi pilin e ni: kulupu ni li lon ala. taso mi ken ala toki e nimi
tan pi pilin ni.

jan mute li tawa tomo mi. ona mute li moku e moku e telo nasa. jan li toki e
tenpo pini sike jan Wapa.

*pakala 'sike' sin. sina ken ala ken toki e tenpo. tenpo li nimi ala.

moli li ala.
mi tawa tomo poka.

*ken la sina en e nimi 'taso'

tenpo pini la seme mi mute li lon. mi mute li lon kin.

*I gotta do this in English. 'Whatever' is not 'seme' which just asks a
question, whereas 'whatever' is a generalization. I want to say "We were many
things to one another and we are those things still" but 'one another' stops me.
I guess, "I was many things to you and you were many things to me and we still
are." Of course, "be many things to" is no snap either.

o toki e mi kepeken nimi mi. o toki pona pali e mi. sama tenpo pini la o pana e
kon pi pilin pona.

*'toki tawa mi' "nimi mi sina'? sin la 'toki... tawa'. o en e kulupu sama 'tan
toki musi lili'

o musi. o pali e sinpin pona. o pilin e mi. o toki tawa jan sewi sike mi.

*nimi 'pilin' li sama nimi 'toki' mi nimi ala li pilin ala. taso nimi 'sike'
li pakala.

o toki e nimi mi lon tomo. o toki PI? pona pali e nimi mi.

ali li lon sama. ali li awen. ala li tu.
sina lukin ala e mi. o awen e mi lon lawa sina.
tenpo lili la mi awen tawa sina. mi lon poka.
ali li pona. ala li lon tenpo pini. ala li weka.
tenpo kama la ali li pona mute.

*mi pilin ike tan ni: nimi kule ali li lon ala.

tenpo kama la mi mute li lon poka jan sewi.


*I like this summary. Source?

Death is nothing at all
I have only slipped away into the next room.
Whatever we were to each other, that we are still.
Call me by my own familiar name. Speak to me in the easy way which you always
used. Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes we enjoyed together.
Play, smile, think of me, pray for me.
Let my name be the household word that it always was. Let it be spoken without
effort.
Life means all that it ever meant, it is the same as it ever was; there is
absolutely unbroken continuity.
Why should I be out of your mind because I am out of your sight?
I am but waiting for you, for an interval, somewhere very near just around the
corner.
All is well. Nothing is past, nothing is lost.
One brief moment and all will be as it was before – only better, infinitely
happier and forever.
We will all be one together with God.




________________________________
From: daraffa <aikidave@gmail.com>
To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 2:03:05 PM
Subject: [tokipona] Dave's writing exercises #4


The following poem has always spoken to me in times of loss. I have tried to
translate it into tp. Your comments and corrections are welcome. I am still
unsure of when and when not to use the object separator 'e'. I know it is not
used after lon or tawa (unless I am moving a rock or some object).
Thanks,
Dave

moli li ala.
mi tawa tomo poka.
tenpo pini la seme mi mute li lon. mi mute li lon kin.
o toki e mi kepeken nimi mi. o toki pona pali e mi. sama tenpo pini la o pana e
kon pi pilin pona.
o musi. o pali e sinpin pona. o pilin e mi. o toki tawa jan sewi sike mi.
o toki e nimi mi lon tomo. o toki pona pali e nimi mi.
ali li lon sama. ali li awen. ala li tu.
sina lukin ala e mi. o awen e mi lon lawa sina.
tenpo lili la mi awen tawa sina. mi lon poka.
ali li pona. ala li lon tenpo pini. ala li weka.
tenpo kama la ali li pona mute.
tenpo kama la mi mute li lon poka jan sewi.

Death is nothing at all
I have only slipped away into the next room.
Whatever we were to each other, that we are still.
Call me by my own familiar name. Speak to me in the easy way which you always
used. Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes we enjoyed together.
Play, smile, think of me, pray for me.
Let my name be the household word that it always was. Let it be spoken without
effort.
Life means all that it ever meant, it is the same as it ever was; there is
absolutely unbroken continuity.
Why should I be out of your mind because I am out of your sight?
I am but waiting for you, for an interval, somewhere very near just around the
corner.
All is well. Nothing is past, nothing is lost.
One brief moment and all will be as it was before – only better, infinitely
happier and forever.
We will all be one together with God.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


salikh.zakirov

Re: Dave''s writing exercises #4

Postby salikh.zakirov » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:03 am


Hi, Dave!

I have tried to translate your toki pona poem translation back to
English *before* looking at the English original.
Sorry if my toki pona competency is not high enough to get to the
hidden meaning, but I hope you find it helpful.

> moli li ala.
Death is nothing.

> mi tawa tomo poka.
I go to the near building (room?).

> tenpo pini la seme mi mute li lon.
In the past, what mine (multiple my things) were.
(* This feels a little bit ungrammatic, as there is no question.
Or where you intending "what of us" or something like that? *)

> mi mute li lon kin.
We exist indeed.

> o toki e mi kepeken nimi mi.
Please talk to me my name.
(* I think you were trying to say "please call me by my name",
and if that's true, "o nimi e mi kepeken nimi mi" seems a bit better *)

> o toki pona pali e mi.
Report to me.
(* or is that something like "recite to me"? *)

> sama tenpo pini la o pana e kon pi pilin pona.
In the moment of past, give me an air of good feeling!

> o musi. o pali e sinpin pona.
Enjoy yourself! Make a good face.

> o pilin e mi.
Feel me! (* or "Think of me!" ?*)

> o toki tawa jan sewi sike mi.
Talk to my round god!
(* Sorry, I could not get what "round god" means *)

> o toki e nimi mi lon tomo.
Please tell my name in the house.

> o toki pona pali e nimi mi.
Please recite my name.

> ali li lon sama. ali li awen. ala li tu.
Everything is the same. Everything stays. Nothing splits.
(* Or was that "nothing changes" intended? In that case, how about
"ala li kama ante"? *)

> sina lukin ala e mi. o awen e mi lon lawa sina.
You don't look at me. Please remember me.

> tenpo lili la mi awen tawa sina.
(* or is that "I will prevent you from moving" i.e. "I will
bind/stop/set at rest you"?
If so, how about "mi awen e tawa sina" or "mi awen tawa e sina"?
Anyway, it is entirely unclear to me if it is reasonable to use "tawa"
as modifier in places where it looks like a preposition and require
reader to deduce from context.
"e" is binding stronger than "tawa", so using "e" would resolve the
parsing ambiguity *)

> mi lon poka.
I am near.

> ali li pona. ala li lon tenpo pini. ala li weka.
Everything is okay. Nothing is in the past. Nothing will leave.

> tenpo kama la ali li pona mute.
Everything will get much better.

> tenpo kama la mi mute li lon poka jan sewi.
We all will come to god.

-----
Now that I have completed line by line translation, I will try to
rephrase the whole passage as far as my understanding permits.


Death is nothing.
I go to the nearby building.
In the past, I had many things. We existed indeed.
Please call me by my name. Recite to me.
In the moment of past, give me an air of good feeling!
Enjoy yourself! Smile! Think about me! Talk to my round god!
Please tell my name in the house. Please recite my name.
Everything is the same. Everything stays. Nothing splits.
You don't look at me. Please remember me.
Soon I will put you to rest. I am near.
Everything is okay. Nothing is in the past. Nothing will leave.
Everything will get much better.
We all will come to god.

----
Now comes the moment for me to look at the English original
and enjoy a rare moment of comprehension :)

Wow! At least I was close with "pray" :)
Thank for the interesting translation!
Salikh.


John E Clifford

Re: Re: Dave''s writing exercises #4

Postby John E Clifford » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:46 pm


ni li pona.  mi sitelen anpa kin




________________________________
From: salikh.zakirov <salikh@gmail.com>
To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 12:03:00 AM
Subject: [tokipona] Re: Dave's writing exercises #4


Hi, Dave!

I have tried to translate your toki pona poem translation back to
English *before* looking at the English original.
Sorry if my toki pona competency is not high enough to get to the
hidden meaning, but I hope you find it helpful.

> moli li ala.
Death is nothing.

> mi tawa tomo poka.
I go to the near building (room?).

> tenpo pini la seme mi mute li lon.
In the past, what mine (multiple my things) were.
(* This feels a little bit ungrammatic, as there is no question.
Or where you intending "what of us" or something like that? *)


*ken la ona li wile e kulupu 'pi mi mute' - looking for general "whatever"
rather than question "what" (some ancient proto Indo-European has a lot to
answer for). Incidentally, I suspect he really means 'mi tu'

> mi mute li lon kin.
We exist indeed.

> o toki e mi kepeken nimi mi.
Please talk to me my name.
(* I think you were trying to say "please call me by my name",
and if that's true, "o nimi e mi kepeken nimi mi" seems a bit better *)
*Real problems here: I guess "talk to me" is 'toki tawa mi' but 'nlml' as a
transitive verb comes up short: is "name X 'Y'" 'nimi e nimi 'Y' tawa X' or
'nimi 'Y' e X'. Good cases can be made either way and I can't find an example.

> o toki pona pali e mi.
Report to me.
(* or is that something like "recite to me"? *)
*I don't get this one either.

> sama tenpo pini la o pana e kon pi pilin pona.
In the moment of past, give me an air of good feeling!

*Don't forget 'sama': "as in the past". 'kon pi pilin pona' has been used for
"laugh".
> o musi. o pali e sinpin pona.
Enjoy yourself! Make a good face.

*"Smile"
> o pilin e mi.
Feel me! (* or "Think of me!" ?*)

*Again, How do we say that latter?

> o toki tawa jan sewi sike mi.
Talk to my round god!
(* Sorry, I could not get what "round god" means *)
*Trying to solve the "talk about" problem with the English pattern, i.e., 'sike'
is a preposition here.

> o toki e nimi mi lon tomo.
Please tell my name in the house.

> o toki pona pali e nimi mi.
Please recite my name.

> ali li lon sama. ali li awen. ala li tu.
Everything is the same. Everything stays. Nothing splits.
(* Or was that "nothing changes" intended? In that case, how about
"ala li kama ante"? *)
*Nice.

> sina lukin ala e mi. o awen e mi lon lawa sina.
You don't look at me. Please remember me.

*Probably "see"

> tenpo lili la mi awen tawa sina.
(* or is that "I will prevent you from moving" i.e. "I will
bind/stop/set at rest you"?
If so, how about "mi awen e tawa sina" or "mi awen tawa e sina"?
Anyway, it is entirely unclear to me if it is reasonable to use "tawa"
as modifier in places where it looks like a preposition and require
reader to deduce from context.
"e" is binding stronger than "tawa", so using "e" would resolve the
parsing ambiguity *)
*I gather 'tawa' is a preposition here "waiting for you." This ambiguity, with
'tawa' at the end of objects is ever present.

> mi lon poka.
I am near.

> ali li pona. ala li lon tenpo pini. ala li weka.
Everything is okay. Nothing is in the past. Nothing will leave.

> tenpo kama la ali li pona mute.
Everything will get much better.

> tenpo kama la mi mute li lon poka jan sewi.
We all will come to god.

*Just "be with'
-----
Now that I have completed line by line translation, I will try to
rephrase the whole passage as far as my understanding permits.

Death is nothing.
I go to the nearby building.
In the past, I had many things. We existed indeed.
Please call me by my name. Recite to me.
In the moment of past, give me an air of good feeling!
Enjoy yourself! Smile! Think about me! Talk to my round god!
Please tell my name in the house. Please recite my name.
Everything is the same. Everything stays. Nothing splits.
You don't look at me. Please remember me.
Soon I will put you to rest. I am near.
Everything is okay. Nothing is in the past. Nothing will leave.
Everything will get much better.
We all will come to god.

----
Now comes the moment for me to look at the English original
and enjoy a rare moment of comprehension :)

Wow! At least I was close with "pray" :)
Thank for the interesting translation!
Salikh.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


daraffa

Re: Dave''s writing exercises #4

Postby daraffa » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:57 am


[I am still at the stage where I have to translate everything out on paper, so
my translations are in brackets below]
My comments or questions come after the bracketed text.

--- In tokipona@yahoogroups.com, John E Clifford <kali9putra@...> wrote:
>
> tenpo pini lili la mama mije pi meli mi li moli.
>
> *ken la sina wile e kulupu 'ona li kama moli.' kulupu 'tenpo pini mute la ona
li moli ala' li lon poka wan. kulupu 'tenpo ni la ona li moli' li lon poka ante.

[maybe you want the phrase 'he became dead'. The phrase 'much time ago he did
not die' is one side. The phrase 'this time he died' is another side. ]

So to indicate that someone has died, I should use 'kama moli'?

> nimi ona li jan Wapa.
>
> *'ona li jan Wapa' anu ' nimi ona li nimi 'Wapa.' nimi li jan ala. nimi
'Wapa' li sona e seme kepeken toki Inli.

['he is Bob' or 'his name is the word Bob'. The name is not the person. The word
'Bob' is what using English.]

I translated Bob or Robert as Wapa in tp. Is this ok?

I believe one translation of 'sona e' is 'to know how to'. I wasn't sure how to
translate it in your comment above.

> ijo insa ona pi tawa telo loje li pini. tomo tawa li tawa e jan Wapa tawa tomo
pi pona sijelo.
>
> *anu 'tomo tawa li tawa tomo pi pona sijelo e jan Wapa'

[or 'the car moved Bob to the hospital']

So putting the location (hospital) immediately after the word tawa is better
because then I don't have to use tawa again later? I remember reading somewhere
that tawa tawa is absorbed into a single tawa.

> jan pi sijelo sona li wile open e ijo pi tawa telo loje.
>
> *jan ni li jo ala e sijelo sona. tenp mute la sijelo li sona ala. tan i la
sina wile kulupu 'jan pi sona (anu pona) sijelo'

[this person does not have body knowledge. Many times the body knows nothing.
Because of this, you want the phrase 'man of knowledge of the body' (or
knowledge of fixing the body).]

I understand what you are saying here. I have to be careful of the order of
adjectives and the words they modify.

> taso ijo ona li open ala. kulupu mama mi li tawa tomo pi pona sijelo.
> jan pi sijelo sona li toki e nimi ike tawa mi mute. ona li toki E ni: jan Wapa
li moli.
>
> *sin la. kin la sina wile e nimi 'e.'

[sin la? maybe you want the word 'e']

Yes, I forgot the object separator 'e'.

What does the idiom 'sin la' mean?

> mi mute li pilin ike. mi mute li pana e oko
> telo.
>
> *'telo oko' lon la oko li telo. taso ona li pana e oko.

[If there is 'eye water', then the eye waters. But it gives the eye.]

I see my order of adjective and noun was backwards again. We gave water of/from
the eyes - we cried.

> tenpo lili la mi mute li awen poka sijelo pi jan Wapa.
>
> *mi sona ala. taso mi filin e ni: sina wile kepeken e kulupu 'lon poka.'

[I don't know. But I think this: you wish to use the phrase 'at the side'.]

I see now that the verb 'awen' just means we remained but it doesn't give the
location; so I need to use 'lon poka' to indicate 'at the side' of Bob.

> meli pi jan Wapa li weka e sike wan tan luka pi jan Wapa.
>
> *pakala! mi sona ala e kulupu ni. kulupu Inli 'His wife hugged him' li lon al
lon. anu kulupu 'She took a ring from his hand'
>
[I do not understand this phrase. Is it the English phrase 'His wife hugged
him'? Or the phrase 'She took a ring from his hand']

I was trying to say that she 'removed the wedding ring from his hand'. I threw
in 'wan' to indicate a 'uniting' ring.

> mi toki e jan lili tu mi.
>
> *jan lili li nimi ala. tan ni la sina ken ala toki e ona. sina wile kulupu
'toki tawa jan lili mi'

['jan lili' is the wrong word. This is why you cannot talk them. You want the
phrase 'speak to my children'.]

I understand. I speak words. I cannot speak children. I speak TO the children.

> ona li pana e oko telo.
>
> *'telo oko'

Same mistake as I made above.

> mi sike e ona.
>
> *mi sona ala. taso mi filin e ni: toki sina li lon. a! kulupu ni li nimi Inli
'hug'

[I do not understand. But I think this: your talk is this. This phrase is the
English word 'hug'.]

Yes, I was trying to say 'I hugged them' or 'I circled them'. Is this ok?

> mi mute li pali e sona tawa lukin sijelo.
>
> *lon ni la nimi 'sona' li seme. ken la 'kulupu'

[here the word 'knowledge' is what? Maybe group?]

I was trying to say we made 'plans' for the wake / viewing. Can I use 'sona' for
'plans'?

> meli pi jan Wapa li wile e poki sijelo. jan li telo e sijelo. jan li pana e
sijelo lon poki sijelo.
>
> *ken la 'li lon poki sijelo e sijelo' nimi 'pana' li pona ala tawa mi

[maybe 'in the casket the body' the word 'put' is not good to me. ]

I was trying to say the 'undertaker put the body into the casket'. I couldn't
think of a word for 'undertaker' so I used jan for person.
Is it true that the prepositional phrase usually comes after the direct object?
Or should the PP come directly after the verb?

> kulupu mama mute en jan pona mute li kama tawa lukin sijelo. ona mute li pana
e kasi kule mute. ona mute li pilin ike. jan li open ala e poki sijelo. mi mute
li pana e oko telo.
>
> *sin la.
>
> kulupu mama en jan pona li kama kulupu lon tomo sewi. jan luka en mi li tawa e
poki sijelo lon tomo sewi.
>
> *'tawa tomo sewi e poki sijelo'

[ 'moved the casket to the church']

So I was correct in thinking that tawa in this sentence is a transitive verb
which takes casket as a direct object? But I don't need the extra 'lon' for 'at'
the church because the tawa takes care of this? I'm confused.


> mi mute li kute e kalama musi pona. jan sewi lili li toki e nimi pona sike jan
Wapa.
>
> *kulupu 'jan sewi' li pakala' ona li sona e ijo tu. tan ni la toki sina li
pona. taso mi sona ala e ni: kulupu 'toki sike' li lon tawa kulupu Inli 'talk
about.'

[The phrase 'jan sewi' is a mistake. It means 2 things. This is why your
communication is good. But I do not know this: the phrase 'toki sike' is the
English phrase 'talk about']

Yes, I was trying to say 'the minister spoke good words about Bob.'

> ona toki ni: moli ala li lon kon sewi.
>
> *jan sewi lili sona ala sona e ni: jan Wanpi en jan Sonpi li lon kon sewi. mi
pilin e ni: sina wile e kulupu 'ona li moli ala. ona li lon kon sewi.'

[Does the priest know about this: person Wanpi and person Sonpi are in the
heavens? I think this: you want the group 'he is not dead. he is in heaven.']

Wanpi and Sonpi ??
I was trying to say 'there is no death in heaven' but I could break it up into 2
sentences as you suggested.


> jan mute li toki tawa jan sewi. tomo tawa li tawa e poki sijelo tawa ma moli.
kulupu mama li toki ni: tawa pona. o lape lon ali li pona. jan li anpa e poki
sijelo lon anpa ma.
>
> *mi sona ala. mi pilin e ni: kulupu ni li lon ala. taso mi ken ala toki e
nimi tan pi pilin ni.

[I don't know. I think this: this group does not exist. But I cannot speak the
word from thinking this.]

I was trying to say 'sleep in peace' - sleep in all that is good.

> jan mute li tawa tomo mi. ona mute li moku e moku e telo nasa. jan li toki e
tenpo pini sike jan Wapa.
>
> *pakala 'sike' sin. sina ken ala ken toki e tenpo. tenpo li nimi ala.

[Messed up 'sike' again. You cannot speak time. Time is not a word]

Yes, I see now, people can't speak time. I was trying to say 'the people spoke
about past times with Bob'.
Maybe I should have written 'jan li toki sike tenpo pini poka jan Wapa' ?


> moli li ala.
> mi tawa tomo poka.
>
> *ken la sina en e nimi 'taso'

[Maybe you want the word 'taso' - 'but']

> tenpo pini la seme mi mute li lon. mi mute li lon kin.
>
> *I gotta do this in English. 'Whatever' is not 'seme' which just asks a
question, whereas 'whatever' is a generalization. I want to say "We were many
things to one another and we are those things still" but 'one another' stops me.
I guess, "I was many things to you and you were many things to me and we still
are." Of course, "be many things to" is no snap either.

I guess I should stick to simpler topics! <grin>

>
> o toki e mi kepeken nimi mi. o toki pona pali e mi. sama tenpo pini la o pana
e kon pi pilin pona.
>
> *'toki tawa mi' "nimi mi sina'? sin la 'toki... tawa'. o en e kulupu sama
'tan toki musi lili'
>
> o musi. o pali e sinpin pona. o pilin e mi. o toki tawa jan sewi sike mi.
>
> *nimi 'pilin' li sama nimi 'toki' mi nimi ala li pilin ala. taso nimi 'sike'
li pakala.
>
> o toki e nimi mi lon tomo. o toki PI? pona pali e nimi mi.
>
> ali li lon sama. ali li awen. ala li tu.
> sina lukin ala e mi. o awen e mi lon lawa sina.
> tenpo lili la mi awen tawa sina. mi lon poka.
> ali li pona. ala li lon tenpo pini. ala li weka.
> tenpo kama la ali li pona mute.
>
> *mi pilin ike tan ni: nimi kule ali li lon ala.
>
> tenpo kama la mi mute li lon poka jan sewi.
>
>
> *I like this summary. Source?

My cousin is a permanent deacon in the catholic church. He gave me the poem 7 or
8 years ago. I don't know who wrote it originally.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.


John E Clifford

Re: Re: Dave''s writing exercises #4

Postby John E Clifford » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:16 pm


________________________________
From: daraffa <aikidave@gmail.com>
To: tokipona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:57:01 AM
Subject: [tokipona] Re: Dave's writing exercises #4


[I am still at the stage where I have to translate everything out on paper, so
my translations are in brackets below]
My comments or questions come after the bracketed text.

--- In tokipona@yahoogroup s.com, John E Clifford <kali9putra@ ...> wrote:
>
> tenpo pini lili la mama mije pi meli mi li moli.
>
> *ken la sina wile e kulupu 'ona li kama moli.' kulupu 'tenpo pini mute la ona
li moli ala' li lon poka wan. kulupu 'tenpo ni la ona li moli' li lon poka ante.

[maybe you want the phrase 'he became dead'. The phrase 'much time ago he did
not die' is one side. The phrase 'this time he died' is another side. ]

So to indicate that someone has died, I should use 'kama moli'?
*I take 'moli' to mean "dead," not primarily "die"

> nimi ona li jan Wapa.
>
> *'ona li jan Wapa' anu ' nimi ona li nimi 'Wapa.' nimi li jan ala. nimi
'Wapa' li sona e seme kepeken toki Inli.

['he is Bob' or 'his name is the word"Bob"'. The name is not the person. The
word 'Bob' is what using English.]

I translated Bob or Robert as Wapa in tp. Is this ok?
*OK; I can see what, say 'Papi' might not work as well.

I believe one translation of 'sona e' is 'to know how to'. I wasn't sure how to
translate it in your comment above.
*'means'

> ijo insa ona pi tawa telo loje li pini. tomo tawa li tawa e jan Wapa tawa tomo
pi pona sijelo.
>
> *anu 'tomo tawa li tawa tomo pi pona sijelo e jan Wapa'

[or 'the car moved Bob to the hospital']

So putting the location (hospital) immediately after the word tawa is better
because then I don't have to use tawa again later? I remember reading somewhere
that tawa tawa is absorbed into a single tawa.
*Well, 'tawa' (and 'lon' and maybe a few others) can take the location directly
after as a sort of right grouped modifier. If the grammar patteris followeed
oyther wise, there would not be a 'tawa tawa', since 'e jan Wapa' intervenes.

> jan pi sijelo sona li wile open e ijo pi tawa telo loje.
>
> *jan ni li jo ala e sijelo sona. tenpo mute la sijelo li sona ala. tan ni la
sina wile kulupu 'jan pi sona (anu pona) sijelo'

[this person does not have body knowledge.

*more like 'knowing body' or 'wise body'

Many times the body knows nothing. Because of this, you want the phrase 'man of
knowledge of the body' (or knowledge of fixing the body).]

I understand what you are saying here. I have to be careful of the order of
adjectives and the words they modify.
*Yes indeed.

> taso ijo ona li open ala. kulupu mama mi li tawa tomo pi pona sijelo.
> jan pi sijelo sona li toki e nimi ike tawa mi mute. ona li toki E ni: jan Wapa
li moli.
>
> *sin la. kin la sina wile e nimi 'e.'

[sin la? maybe you want the word 'e']

*No, it marks another occurrence of 'sijelo sona'


Yes, I forgot the object separator 'e'.

What does the idiom 'sin la' mean?
*Paradoxically, it seems it could mean "Yet again" or "To start afresh" -- I
meant the former.

> mi mute li pilin ike. mi mute li pana e oko
> telo.
>
> *'telo oko' lon la oko li telo. taso ona li pana e oko.

[If there is 'eye water', then the eye waters. But it gives the eye.]

I see my order of adjective and noun was backwards again. We gave water of/from
the eyes - we cried.
*Yup.

> tenpo lili la mi mute li awen poka sijelo pi jan Wapa.
>
> *mi sona ala. taso mi filin e ni: sina wile kepeken e kulupu 'lon poka.'

[I don't know. But I think this: you wish to use the phrase 'at the side'.]

I see now that the verb 'awen' just means we remained but it doesn't give the
location; so I need to use 'lon poka' to indicate 'at the side' of Bob.
*Well, 'poka' alone means "with," I think, but 'awen' is pretty certainly not
like 'tawa' as far as location goes.

> meli pi jan Wapa li weka e sike wan tan luka pi jan Wapa.
>
> *pakala! mi sona ala e kulupu ni. kulupu Inli 'His wife hugged him' li lon al
lon. anu kulupu 'She took a ring from his hand'
>
[I do not understand this phrase. Is it the English phrase 'His wife hugged
him'? Or the phrase 'She took a ring from his hand']

I was trying to say that she 'removed the wedding ring from his hand'. I threw
in 'wan' to indicate a 'uniting' ring.
*Very nice -- I missed that point completely (it's hard to re,meber the numbers
are verbs too).

> mi toki e jan lili tu mi.
>
> *jan lili li nimi ala. tan ni la sina ken ala toki e ona. sina wile kulupu
'toki tawa jan lili mi'

['jan lili' is the wrong word.

*Oy, yoy yoy! This words and thing confusion always comes up and I always get
myself tangled in it. You have moved from talk about kids to talk about words
by adding the quotes, but the point was just that kids are not words (nimi ala
-- not ike or so)

This is why you cannot talk them. You want the phrase 'speak to my children'.]

I understand. I speak words. I cannot speak children. I speak TO the children.
*Yes, 'toki tawa jan lili mi'

> ona li pana e oko telo.
>
> *'telo oko'

Same mistake as I made above.

*yes

> mi sike e ona.
>
> *mi sona ala. taso mi filin e ni: toki sina li lon. a! kulupu ni li nimi Inli
'hug'

[I do not understand. But I think this: your talk is this. This phrase is the
English word 'hug'.]

Yes, I was trying to say 'I hugged them' or 'I circled them'. Is this ok?
*Yes indeed, it just took a minute (although, I suspect that strictly transitive
'sike' should mean, "formed into a circle" not "encircle" -- and I don't know
how to finish it off in that case).

> mi mute li pali e sona tawa lukin sijelo.
>
> *lon ni la nimi 'sona' li seme. ken la 'kulupu'

[here the word 'knowledge' is what? Maybe group?]

I was trying to say we made 'plans' for the wake / viewing. Can I use 'sona' for
'plans'?
*I think 'nasin' is probably better, but I don't have any clear cases. (Oops,
the dictiionary does say 'sona' and dopesn't mention 'nasin'. My bad!)

> meli pi jan Wapa li wile e poki sijelo. jan li telo e sijelo. jan li pana e
sijelo lon poki sijelo.
>
> *ken la 'li lon poki sijelo e sijelo' nimi 'pana' li pona ala tawa mi

[maybe 'in the casket the body' the word 'put' is not good to me. ]

I was trying to say the 'undertaker put the body into the casket'. I couldn't
think of a word for 'undertaker' so I used 'jan' for person.
Is it true that the prepositional phrase usually comes after the direct object?
Or should the PP come directly after the verb?
*'lon' works like 'tawa:' it's a preposition tha thappens to be in verb place,
but takes its object with it when it moves. I now suspect that 'insa' would be
useful here.

> kulupu mama mute en jan pona mute li kama tawa lukin sijelo. ona mute li pana
e kasi kule mute. ona mute li pilin ike. jan li open ala e poki sijelo. mi mute
li pana e oko telo.
>
> *sin la.
>
> kulupu mama en jan pona li kama kulupu lon tomo sewi. jan luka en mi li tawa e
poki sijelo lon tomo sewi.
>
> *'tawa tomo sewi e poki sijelo'

[ 'moved the casket to the church']

So I was correct in thinking that tawa in this sentence is a transitive verb
which takes casket as a direct object? But I don't need the extra 'lon' for 'at'
the church because the tawa takes care of this? I'm confused.
*Welcome to tp! Incidentally, 'tawa e poki sijelo lon tomo sewi' means
something like "moved the coffin around and about in the church" -- 'lon' is the
location of the action not the place toward which it moves.

> mi mute li kute e kalama musi pona. jan sewi lili li toki e nimi pona sike jan
Wapa.
>
> *kulupu 'jan sewi' li pakala' ona li sona e ijo tu. tan ni la toki sina li
pona. taso mi sona ala e ni: kulupu 'toki sike' li lon tawa kulupu Inli 'talk
about.'

[The phrase 'jan sewi' is a mistake. It means 2 things. This is why your
communication is good. But I do not know this: the phrase 'toki sike' is the
English phrase 'talk about']

Yes, I was trying to say 'the minister spoke good words about Bob.'
*Yes, that is still not officaila (and I don't like it much, since it is a loan
trandslation from English -- but then, so are a lot of other things in tp).

> ona toki ni: moli ala li lon kon sewi.
>
> *jan sewi lili sona ala sona e ni: jan Wanpi en jan Sonpi li lon kon sewi. mi
pilin e ni: sina wile e kulupu 'ona li moli ala. ona li lon kon sewi.'

[Does the priest know about this: person Wanpi and person Sonpi are in the
heavens? I think this: you want the group 'he is not dead. he is in heaven.']

Wanpi and Sonpi ??
*Vampires and Zombies, i.e. the moli ala, undead.
I was trying to say 'there is no death in heaven' but I could break it up into 2
sentences as you suggested.
*The two are close to what you mean, probably, but not quite the same. The
problem is that the simple 'moli li lon ala kon sewi' might just as well mean
that this dead one here is not in Heaven. Maybe 'ala li moli lon kon sewi'?

> jan mute li toki tawa jan sewi. tomo tawa li tawa e poki sijelo tawa ma moli.
kulupu mama li toki ni: tawa pona. o lape lon ali li pona. jan li anpa e poki
sijelo lon anpa ma.
>
> *mi sona ala. mi pilin e ni: kulupu ni li lon ala. taso mi ken ala toki e
nimi tan pi pilin ni.

[I don't know. I think this: this group does not exist
*"is incorrect"

. But I cannot speak the word from thinking this.]
*"But I can't say (find, think of) the basic reason for this feeling ('nimi' is
probably wrong here - maybe 'sona.' but that doesn't feel quite right either.)

I was trying to say 'sleep in peace' - sleep in all that is good.
*Aha! 'o lape lon ali pona' (or maybe 'pona ali'); you cant have a 'li' there or
it becomes a conjoint verb phrase "sleep in all and be good"

> jan mute li tawa tomo mi. ona mute li moku e moku e telo nasa. jan li toki e
tenpo pini sike jan Wapa.
>
> *pakala 'sike' sin. sina ken ala ken toki e tenpo. tenpo li nimi ala.

[Messed up 'sike' again. You cannot speak time. Time is not a word]
"Damn! 'sike' again!" (see earlier)

Yes, I see now, people can't speak time. I was trying to say 'the people spoke
about past times with Bob'.
Maybe I should have written 'jan li toki sike tenpo pini poka jan Wapa' ?

* Well, still, depending upon whether 'sike' is right.
> moli li ala.
> mi tawa tomo poka.
>
> *ken la sina en e nimi 'taso'

[Maybe you want the word 'taso' - 'but']
*"add the word 'only'"

> tenpo pini la seme mi mute li lon. mi mute li lon kin.
>
> *I gotta do this in English. 'Whatever' is not 'seme' which just asks a
question, whereas 'whatever' is a generalization. I want to say "We were many
things to one another and we are those things still" but 'one another' stops me.
I guess, "I was many things to you and you were many things to me and we still
are." Of course, "be many things to" is no snap either.

I guess I should stick to simpler topics! <grin>

*Hey, it is the tough questions that help the language fill out (or fill in the
gaps).
>
> o toki e mi kepeken nimi mi. o toki pona pali e mi. sama tenpo pini la o pana
e kon pi pilin pona.
>
> *'toki tawa mi' "nimi mi sina'? sin la 'toki... tawa'. o en e kulupu sama
'tan toki musi lili'
*probably also 'sama pi tenpo pini'
>
> o musi. o pali e sinpin pona. o pilin e mi. o toki tawa jan sewi sike mi.
>
> *nimi 'pilin' li sama nimi 'toki' mi nimi ala li pilin ala. taso nimi 'sike'
li pakala.
>
> o toki e nimi mi lon tomo. o toki PI? pona pali e nimi mi.
>
> ali li lon sama. ali li awen. ala li tu.
> sina lukin ala e mi. o awen e mi lon lawa sina.
> tenpo lili la mi awen tawa sina. mi lon poka.
> ali li pona. ala li lon tenpo pini. ala li weka.
> tenpo kama la ali li pona mute.
>
> *mi pilin ike tan ni: nimi kule ali li lon ala.
>
> tenpo kama la mi mute li lon poka jan sewi.
>
>
> *I like this summary. Source?

My cousin is a permanent deacon in the catholic church. He gave me the poem 7 or
8 years ago. I don't know who wrote it originally.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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